Wow, what a beautiful sight! Larry Nevel's stroke, warming up for a 9-ball match

Jeff G. Martin said:
I think the answer here is the number of events he shoots in, or doesn't in his case. If he didn't have a full time job and toured around like other pro-caliber players, I believe that he would win a few.

I watched him trade sets with Shane at The Carom Room in Beloit, WI. I believe they broke even after four or five hours.

I didn't see this session, but an employee of The Carom Room posted that Larry broke even with Dennis after seven hours of big table 10-ball.

I'm not trying to convince you he's going to trade sets with either player every time he plays them, but he can play with the best.
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If you look at the video in the edit to my previous post, he was asked this question in an interview, and he claims he gets bored too easily in matches, which causes loss in concentration, and he hates to practice, so he doesn't do it as much as he should.

I'm not sure how you know the amount of events he plays in, or if/how long he has had a full time job, but if that's true, that could also be an explanation.

Assuming he could trade sets with Shane and Dennis on a consistent basis, then it's even more baffling that he doesn't win many of the events he plays in.
 
railbird99 said:
Assuming he could trade sets with Shane and Dennis on a consistent basis, then it's even more baffling that he doesn't win many of the events he plays in.
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Not so baffling when we consider the difference between playing sets against one strong opponent for 4 to 5 hours or playing perhaps 6 to 10 opponents in an event (any one of whom might send you home or send you to the losers bracket) to get to the top prize money.

Arnaldo
 
Drop The Rock said:
Oh god here we go. Sorry but the pendulum stroke vs piston creates the same results. The reason most people cant produce what a piston stroke does is that they hit the cb too late. A pendulum stroke is no good if contact is made too late in the swing or too early.

A piston stroke only really has this issue with a hit that is too early. The elbow drop makes it difficult to hit the ball too late and decreases the loss of energy. HOWEVER. More moving parts also means more energy expended NOT necessarily imparted.

Also, like golf, distance is affected (removing variables of material) by swing speed and contacting the ball at the correct point during the swing. Cue speed and contact "timing" work the same way in pool. From my personal experience I can produce a match faster cue speed with a pendulum stroke than a piston.

The reason a lot of players use a piston stroke anyways is because of their body position and needing to get out of the way of the cue.

Now stroke length does change the energy imparted on the cue ball. It can be easier to use a longer bridge with a piston stroke than a pendulum. Elbow drop does not = piston. The affect of elbow drop after contact is more psychological than anything because it forces you to follow through properly. A 6" bridge should finish 6 inches after the shot an 8"-8" so on and so forth. The true value of elbow drop after contact is getting used to finishing the cue the appropriate amount through the shot to maximize imparted energy.
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But aren't these threads so addictive and fun?!:grin-square:
 
ENGLISH! said:
The golf analogy is certainly not perfect by any means but there are similarities in play.

The Atlatl method is more applicable as it is linear in delivery & not rotational as the golf club is delivered.

When Mike Massey's elbow raises on the back stroke that puts the upper arm into play on the forward stroke.

Golfers transfer their weight onto the forward side before they even start the downward motion of the arms & hands.

Baseball batters make a stride, even if it is just picking up the foot & putting it back down into the same place.

Fran Crimi recently mentioned about the shoulder moving & CJ Wiley was starting to get into the loading & unloading of the shoulder before he evacuated the bombardment.

We are creatures of movement. Try keeping the lower 1/2 of one's body still in either a golf or baseball swing & see how much success one would have with that approach.

The human body & the mind are amazing entities IF we do not put up mentally contrived mental &/or physical road blocks up to limit them.

The best thing that an athlete can do for themselves is sometimes the most difficult & that is to simply to get out of their own way & let that amazing body & mind do what it can naturally do.

Focus on delivering the cue straight & hitting where one wants to hit & if the elbow drops when it 'wants' to drop', let it, whether it's before, during, or after contact. If the cue is moving in a straight line then it matters not when it lowers. It is only bad if the contrived plan was for it to not move as the cue is changing & not moving in a linear line.

Naturally, one has to not have physical road blocks in the way like a non-conducive connection to the cue or a 'totally' bad stance & set up...
but... we human beings can be fairly good about finding the best & most efficient means if we don't set up those road blocks because we think we know better than our body does about performing a physical task.

Yes, sometimes a bit of help is required to remove some of those roadblocks. More experienced players & professional instructors can certainly be of assistance with that if there is a road block hindering performance & the one helping understands the bio mechanics & not locked into one of those mentally contrived roadblocks.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a point of interest to me.

Best Wishes to You & ALL.
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this is all very interesting to me and jives with the instruction I received over the past year. I was told that the sport has become more athletic than previously thought. Frm the stance to the stroke mechanics, fluidity and athletism plays a role.

I work frequently with the PAT training material, and in the progression levels, the tasks and standard shots become more demanding. I simply cannot achieve them without elbow drop.

here is an example, of a PAT level 2 shot...high inside to move cue around four rails for position. With elbow drop, not only do I get the energy required, but the cue stays level finishing high and not down....I just can't achieve this shot with pinned elbow.


PAT Level 2 Standard Shot #2 video link: https://youtu.be/NzmWf8krh-g
 
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railbird99 said:
I'm not sure how you know the amount of events he plays in, or if/how long he has had a full time job, but if that's true, that could also be an explanation.

Assuming he could trade sets with Shane and Dennis on a consistent basis, then it's even more baffling that he doesn't win many of the events he plays in.
Click to expand...

The Wisconsin pool scene has a highly active Facebook group where Larry posts on.

He does win a lot of the events he plays in (in Wisconsin). Just a quick glance at The Carom Room’s website, he’s won both Open tournaments so far this season, and four out of the six he played in last season. These aren’t huge events, but you’ll find a lot of midwest shortstops and pro-caliber players at these events.

What I meant in meant in my original post was that he’s not shooting in events you’ll hear about (like you mentioned in your post).
 
Wow, what a beautiful sight!
This is exactly what I thought when I saw for the first time D Trump from sky perspective-from above:eek::eek::eek:
 
Drop The Rock said:
Oh god here we go. Sorry but the pendulum stroke vs piston creates the same results. The reason most people cant produce what a piston stroke does is that they hit the cb too late. A pendulum stroke is no good if contact is made too late in the swing or too early.

A piston stroke only really has this issue with a hit that is too early. The elbow drop makes it difficult to hit the ball too late and decreases the loss of energy. HOWEVER. More moving parts also means more energy expended NOT necessarily imparted.

Also, like golf, distance is affected (removing variables of material) by swing speed and contacting the ball at the correct point during the swing. Cue speed and contact "timing" work the same way in pool. From my personal experience I can produce a match faster cue speed with a pendulum stroke than a piston.

The reason a lot of players use a piston stroke anyways is because of their body position and needing to get out of the way of the cue.

Now stroke length does change the energy imparted on the cue ball. It can be easier to use a longer bridge with a piston stroke than a pendulum. Elbow drop does not = piston. The affect of elbow drop after contact is more psychological than anything because it forces you to follow through properly. A 6" bridge should finish 6 inches after the shot an 8"-8" so on and so forth. The true value of elbow drop after contact is getting used to finishing the cue the appropriate amount through the shot to maximize imparted energy.
Click to expand...

Rock,

Anyone can believe or think what ever they wish.

They can also repeat what has been said by others.

They can also give matters some critical thought of their own if so inclined & make their own determinations.

I've recommended that last statement in my sig line for almost all of my membership time here on AZB.

Regards & Best Wishes to You & ALL.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
this is all very interesting to me and jives with the instruction I received over the past year. I was told that the sport has become more athletic than previously thought. Frm the stance to the stroke mechanics, fluidity and athletism plays a role.

I work frequently with the PAT training material, and in the progression levels, the tasks and standard shots become more demanding. I simply cannot achieve them without elbow drop.

here is an example, of a PAT level 2 shot...high inside to move cue around four rails for position. With elbow drop, not only do I get the energy required, but the cue stays level finishing high and not down....I just can't achieve this shot with pinned elbow.


PAT Level 2 Standard Shot #2 video link: https://youtu.be/NzmWf8krh-g
Click to expand...

Kid,

Is that you in the video? If so, somehow I pictured you much older.

Yes, I was 13 when my Dad introduced me to the game/sport. As a 13 year old, I was playing football, baseball, basketball, tennis, frisbee, etc.

CJ Wiley was playing tennis, golf, & doing marshall arts.

I think much regarding the disputes here come down to athletes vs book worms.

Nothing wrong with either & I consider myself both. I just know when to apply each aspect of myself.

The stick is straight & we use a small piece of leather on the narrow end. Why would we want to use an arching motion when the stick is straight & we are NOT using the side of it as with a bat, golf club, tennis racket, etc.?

Why have so many of the old & older pros naturally gravitated to the methods that they did? They did so because they used what worked best to get the money.

Best Wishes To You & ALL.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Kid,

Is that you in the video? If so, somehow I pictured you much older.

Yes, I was 13 when my Dad introduced me to the game/sport. As a 13 year old, I was playing football, baseball, basketball, tennis, frisbee, etc.

CJ Wiley was playing tennis, golf, & doing marshall arts.

I think much regarding the disputes here come down to athletes vs book worms.

Nothing wrong with either & I consider myself both. I just know when to apply each aspect of myself.

The stick is straight & we use a small piece of leather on the narrow end. Why would we want to use an arching motion when the stick is straight & we are NOT using the side of it as with a bat, golf club, tennis racket, etc.?

Why have so many of the old & older pros naturally gravitated to the methods that they did? They did so because they used what worked best to get the money.

Best Wishes To You & ALL.
Click to expand...

Yes, sir, Mr. English that is me in the video on my basement table.
Absolutely agree with your assessment regarding athletes and the approach to the game. This had been a point of interest to me since December of last year. It really is fascinating to see a sport evolve in methods and tactics, and these conversations are really the cusp of that evolution.

Look at what Stephan Curry is doing with jump shot training and drills in the NBA. He's breaking barriers and soon records. Once long ago, foul shots were shot with the underhanded scoop shot. Techniques always change and evolve and everyone shifted to the modern day foul shot. Yet, Rick Barry is the 3rd best free throw shooter in NBA history with the antiquated underhanded method.

So what works for the player is ultimately the best.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
Yes, sir, Mr. English that is me in the video on my basement table.
Absolutely agree with your assessment regarding athletes and the approach to the game. This had been a point of interest to me since December of last year. It really is fascinating to see a sport evolve in methods and tactics, and these conversations are really the cusp of that evolution.

Look at what Stephan Curry is doing with jump shot training and drills in the NBA. He's breaking barriers and soon records. Once long ago, foul shots were shot with the underhanded scoop shot. Techniques always change and evolve and everyone shifted to the modern day foul shot. Yet, Rick Barry is the 3rd best free throw shooter in NBA history with the antiquated underhanded method.

So what works for the player is ultimately the best.
Click to expand...

Kid,

Your last statement is what it is ALL about.

Too many here don't seem to understand that.

There is an optimal golf swing, but it is useless to an individual if that individual can not execute it for some reason.

Then there is a median type golf swing that 'most' can perform reasonably well but they will most probably never perform at the optimal level of performance with that swing.

One will never know if they can perform the optimal golf swing if they never try to execute it & start off & stay with the median golf swing.

The same is true for baseball swings. One will never know if they have a natural home run swing if all they ever did & do is punch for base hits.

The same can be said for serving in tennis & other strokes too & I'm sure the same can be said for other sports.

Best to You & ALL.
 
Jeff G. Martin said:
I think the answer here is the number of events he shoots in, or doesn't in his case. If he didn't have a full time job and toured around like other pro-caliber players, I believe that he would win a few.

I watched him trade sets with Shane at The Carom Room in Beloit, WI. I believe they broke even after four or five hours.

I didn't see this session, but an employee of The Carom Room posted that Larry broke even with Dennis after seven hours of big table 10-ball.

I'm not trying to convince you he's going to trade sets with either player every time he plays them, but he can play with the best.
Click to expand...

Iv watched him play several times saw him run a 8 pack once he's a great player when he's breaking well but his safe game is a click behind top level players if he has to fight for racks he's often at a disadvantage but when he's on boy is he fun to watch
1
 
arnaldo said:
Not so baffling when we consider the difference between playing sets against one strong opponent for 4 to 5 hours or playing perhaps 6 to 10 opponents in an event (any one of whom might send you home or send you to the losers bracket) to get to the top prize money.

Arnaldo
Click to expand...

In any one single event, that's true. The point is that if he is close to even with Shane and Dennis, you would think he would win, or at least be near the very top, in a lot more world class events than he has.
 
railbird99 said:
In any one single event, that's true. The point is that if he is close to even with Shane and Dennis, you would think he would win, or at least be near the very top, in a lot more world class events than he has.
Click to expand...
Buddy Hall once said (paraphrasing): "A fella can learn how to play at a very high level and many do, but learning how to win at a high level pretty regularly -- that's a lot further up the ladder to get to. Some -- maybe most -- never do learn that part. And nobody can teach it to you."

Arnaldo
 
Larry's prime was in the late 90's early 2000's. And he did win the DCC overall in 2003. Those events are as top tier as you can get. But, imo, he was always a small step below the best of the best in his era, such as Archer, Earl, Reyes, Busty, etc.

Now, 15 to 20 years later, of course he's not going to be winning big events. This is not a dig on him, just reality as a pro get older. Archer was always better than Nevel, and he doesn't even win hardly anything anymore.

Nevel did, though, have a great run in 2011, where he got 5th in the US Open.
 
Sorry Joey, but there is no issue at all shooting those two stroke shots with a pendulum stroke. I've said this before...bet something significant and we'll get a piston stroker and a pendulum stroker of the same caliber, and the proof will be right there in front of you. :D I'm thinking you've lost sight of the power of the "salute" stroke!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

JoeyInCali said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tg3hk9L49MU#t=131
Let me see someone shoot that 8 ball like that with a locked elbow. :D
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Sorry to burst your bubble CK, but you stating that you cannot move the CB around the table like on your video clip, without elbow drop, just tells me that you 1) like Rick, have no comprehension of what a pendulum stroke is, and 2) can easily be shown that those shots are EASY to perform with no elbow drop... So, once again, elbow drop is a choice, rather than a necessity, to perform any shot, regardless of speed...up to and including the break shot. BTW. your tip should ALWAYS finish level or angled down...never up!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Cardigan Kid said:
I work frequently with the PAT training material, and in the progression levels, the tasks and standard shots become more demanding. I simply cannot achieve them without elbow drop.

here is an example, of a PAT level 2 shot...high inside to move cue around four rails for position. With elbow drop, not only do I get the energy required, but the cue stays level finishing high and not down....I just can't achieve this shot with pinned elbow.


PAT Level 2 Standard Shot #2 video link: https://youtu.be/NzmWf8krh-g
Click to expand...
 
arnaldo said:
Buddy Hall once said (paraphrasing): "A fella can learn how to play at a very high level and many do, but learning how to win at a high level pretty regularly -- that's a lot further up the ladder to get to. Some -- maybe most -- never do learn that part. And nobody can teach it to you."

Arnaldo
Click to expand...

Precisely the distinction that is of significance with regard to Larry.
 
Scott Lee said:
Sorry Joey, but there is no issue at all shooting those two stroke shots with a pendulum stroke. I've said this before...bet something significant and we'll get a piston stroker and a pendulum stroker of the same caliber, and the proof will be right there in front of you. :D I'm thinking you've lost sight of the power of the "salute" stroke!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Which pendulum stroker has as much zing as Nevel.
Or Rafael Martinez ?

Shots like that rarely come in a game . 99% of the shots do not need that kind of juice .

The salute is actually an overkill. Most of the shots I do now end up at least 3 inches before the forearm locks with the biceps.
 
Scott Lee said:
Sorry to burst your bubble CK, but you stating that you cannot move the CB around the table like on your video clip, without elbow drop, just tells me that you 1) like Rick, have no comprehension of what a pendulum stroke is, and 2) can easily be shown that those shots are EASY to perform with no elbow drop... So, once again, elbow drop is a choice, rather than a necessity, to perform any shot, regardless of speed...up to and including the break shot. BTW. your tip should ALWAYS finish level or angled down...never up!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Like this?

https://youtu.be/TJaAJz6G5FY?t=31
 
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