Interpretation of a ball being "ON THE SPOT"

[K2Kraze]

Two widely accepted and published definitions we use in most games are these:

Within rule 8.13, Position of Balls: the position of a ball is determined by the projection of its center vertically downward onto the playing surface. A ball is said to be placed on a line or a spot when its center is placed directly over that line or spot.

Within rule 8.1, Parts of the Table: the following will be marked if they are used in the game being played: the foot spot, where the foot string and the long string meet

And specifically in the 14.1 Continuous Pool section of the latest World-Standardized Rules found in the Official Rules and Records Book published by the BCA, 2014 Edition:

Within rule 4.2, The 14.1 Rack: ...The marked outline of the triangle will be used to determine whether an intended break ball is in the rack area.

So ---- here's the scenario:

Our local 14.1 league plays on 8' tables that have the larger 1.25" black Master Spots (and it is called THE SPOT) with the smaller 1/4" inner white spot. No marked outline of the rack on the cloth because these tables understandably are not used exclusively for straight pool.

And here's the question:

Since the "published" definitions within every governing body's rules don't specifically state the CENTER of the ball must be placed in the exact CENTER of a given "spot", is it reasonable to say that as long as the place where the ball touches the playing surface (on the spot) ANYWHERE on that 1.25 large "spot" is a legal spotting of the ball?

Here's where and how this came up:

Player A needing to rack the 14 pocketed balls with their break ball very, very close to the rack - in their estimation. This break ball was NOT "within the rack" but again very, very close. Close enough that when they were racked (absent the head ball of course) the 1.25" spot was off center by as much as 1" --- and in this person's opinion and interpretation, had the apex ball been placed in this rack to test its validity, would have indeed been ON THE SPOT still - just on its outer most edge. Worth noting: the entire rack of 14 balls was obviously off center and above its "normal" position on the table had a rack outline been marked. It was that obvious.

Hard to argue that point when explained that way.

Open for interpretation perhaps.

What do you 14.1 players think about this situation and what defines ON THE SPOT in lieu of technical, specific and explicit published guidelines?

Here is how I dealt with this situation when it occurred: I said that I understand and accept his interpretation of being "on the spot" as this table was marked. Thusly I will play by the exact interpretation he has for the rest of the game including every other marked spot position on the table when they are appropriate.

Game on. No following issues ensued.

Thoughts?

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[alstl]

Mark an outline. I don't understand all this drama over racking in 14.1 unless people are just bored and trying to find something to discuss.

 

[K2Kraze]

Mark an outline. I don't understand all this drama over racking in 14.1 unless people are just bored and trying to find something to discuss.

Reasonable solution IF this were a dedicated 14.1 league table OR the owner of the tables thought this was a good idea - but it's not - and never will be.

Drama? Perhaps. Still doesn't give us any input now does it? I think it's more along the lines of interpretation of the way a rule is written and the definitions given to us within the rules of this game, which is why I posted the question and scenarios.

Your input is appreciated. Thank you.


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[K2Kraze]

Get some tailor's chalk and mark an outline to avoid the issue in the future. You should be able to find some that brushes off (read some reviews on Amazon to find a brand that removes easily). Failing that, adhering to the spirit of the rule would be racking as though the triangle were marked.

Two good points -- ESP the latter. And that is what I find 99% of the time as well.

Still an interesting "loose" interpretation of the racking on the spot possibilities and discussion.

Thanks!


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[DogsPlayingPool]

The way I read the rules they do indeed denote a very specific location for the spot - where the foot string and long string meet. That's a specific point, not a 1.25" diameter area. The rules further state specifically where a ball is positioned - based on the vertical line through the center of the ball. Seems pretty clear to me - the ball must be placed on a specific point. Therefore the racking area is determined exactly - where the rack is located so that a head ball flush against the front corner of the triangle would be on that specific spot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

By the rules, the head spot is a point, not an area. I don't know of any rule set that defines it as some kind of area.

Practically, at nine ball and eight ball the normal situation is that players will move the rack forward a little to try to get the head balls tight. This means that the balls are almost guaranteed to be loose if the rack is the official location.

As for marking the outline, this is the fabric pencil I use:
http://www.joann.com/fons-and-porter-white-mechanical-fabric-pencil-set-with-refill/8666760.html
but I didn't pay that much as I recall. If you mark the rack lightly, it mostly comes off with a little rubbing. If you want to be really official, mark the headstring, headspot and centerspot as well.

A straight pool table is better off without one of those sticker things on the foot spot. There are rule sets that specifically forbid stickers to mark spots.

 

[K2Kraze]

Good points, both Dogs and Bob. Will test out the marking pencil and see how it behaves and cleans up. May have to put a micro table vac in the case.


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[john coloccia]

Those little spot stickers are the work of the devil, IMHO. I'll never understand why the standard isn't simply grab a marker (or whatever), mark the rack, all three spots, both strings, and the centerline from the foot spot to the rail (aids in spotting balls when they don't fit). That should just be automatic when you install new cloth. Oh well.

Anyhow, I remember reading in some rule somewhere that you're allowed the tolerance of a dime in order to get a tight rack, but I can't remember where I read that, which set of rules, etc.

 

[Corwyn_8]

8.13 Position of Balls
The position of a ball is determined by the projection of its center vertically downward onto the playing surface. A ball is said to be placed on a line or spot when its center is placed directly over that line or spot.

8.1 ...the foot spot, where the foot string and the long string meet...

-- WPA Rules

Not much room for 'interpretation'.

Thank you kindly.

 

[lfigueroa]

Two widely accepted and published definitions we use in most games are these:

Within rule 8.13, Position of Balls: the position of a ball is determined by the projection of its center vertically downward onto the playing surface. A ball is said to be placed on a line or a spot when its center is placed directly over that line or spot.

Within rule 8.1, Parts of the Table: the following will be marked if they are used in the game being played: the foot spot, where the foot string and the long string meet

And specifically in the 14.1 Continuous Pool section of the latest World-Standardized Rules found in the Official Rules and Records Book published by the BCA, 2014 Edition:

Within rule 4.2, The 14.1 Rack: ...The marked outline of the triangle will be used to determine whether an intended break ball is in the rack area.

So ---- here's the scenario:

Our local 14.1 league plays on 8' tables that have the larger 1.25" black Master Spots (and it is called THE SPOT) with the smaller 1/4" inner white spot. No marked outline of the rack on the cloth because these tables understandably are not used exclusively for straight pool.

And here's the question:

Since the "published" definitions within every governing body's rules don't specifically state the CENTER of the ball must be placed in the exact CENTER of a given "spot", is it reasonable to say that as long as the place where the ball touches the playing surface (on the spot) ANYWHERE on that 1.25 large "spot" is a legal spotting of the ball?

Here's where and how this came up:

Player A needing to rack the 14 pocketed balls with their break ball very, very close to the rack - in their estimation. This break ball was NOT "within the rack" but again very, very close. Close enough that when they were racked (absent the head ball of course) the 1.25" spot was off center by as much as 1" --- and in this person's opinion and interpretation, had the apex ball been placed in this rack to test its validity, would have indeed been ON THE SPOT still - just on its outer most edge. Worth noting: the entire rack of 14 balls was obviously off center and above its "normal" position on the table had a rack outline been marked. It was that obvious.

Hard to argue that point when explained that way.

Open for interpretation perhaps.

What do you 14.1 players think about this situation and what defines ON THE SPOT in lieu of technical, specific and explicit published guidelines?

Here is how I dealt with this situation when it occurred: I said that I understand and accept his interpretation of being "on the spot" as this table was marked. Thusly I will play by the exact interpretation he has for the rest of the game including every other marked spot position on the table when they are appropriate.

Game on. No following issues ensued.

Thoughts?

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It's supposed to be on the exact center of the spot.

The outer radiuses of "the spot" are to assist the racker, since a ball on the spot sits right on top of it. The outer rings are to give the racker a reference for where that exact center of spot is.

Anyone who has played for any amount of time time knows when a rack is right and when it is off.

Fergoodnesssakes, guys in the Main Forum are talking for pages about guys feathering the head ball at 9ball creating microscopic differences in the alignment in the rack so the wing balls go.

What surprises me, though not that much when I consider who is involved, is that 14.1 players, perhaps the most persnickety pool players of the lot, suddenly develop laryngitis the it comes to noticing that some players are way off the mark, racking their own, in a 14.1 paid competition.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Mark an outline. I don't understand all this drama over racking in 14.1 unless people are just bored and trying to find something to discuss.

It makes a difference.

If you rack higher or lower or twist the rack in relation to the break ball it changes where your CB goes into the stack and how the balls break open.

Lou Figueroa

 

[K2Kraze]

Interpretation of a ball being "ON THE SPOT"

Good points, Lou.

I'm reading all of the posts and the issue, guys/gals, and it's the definition of the SPOT itself that is missing. Is it the entire surface area of the spot (1.25" or the 1/2" smaller snooker spot) that indeed constitutes "the spot" or some other verbiage?

I agree it's the intersection of the foot string and the long string. Then why isn't there a small "cross hatch" in the rules for a game that a rack can have such an impact on records and wins? Why is the "Standard Spot" the Master brand at 1.25"?

Most everyone is inputting their own definition/understanding/interpretation just like the guy did in the match I referenced in the OP. Nothing wrong with that of course as long as both players are playing by the same interpretation. But the more we read in these posts, the more variations we see.

Like - it's supposed to be on the exact center of the spot. Printed rule reference(s) please? Or it's there to assist the racker - which I've never read anywhere. Which of course is why I'm asking this question for thoughts - and references.

Two other ideas/suggestions....

In future rule updates, perhaps this should be addressed - the "interpretation" of the rules through FAQs or a short paragraph explanation like we see in a lot of the published rules.

Standardized spot size - like the 1/2" solid dot.

Rack outlines are the preferred table marking I think we'd most agree on - just not likely in a club that uses tables for every game.






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[john coloccia]

Nearly every person who has responded had been in agreement with each other, with only one person thinking he might remember a rule somewhere that he can't cite allowing that there might maybe be a dime size tolerance, which appears to go against the rules that you quoted and that were again quoted by another respondent, yet is at least more reasonable than the crap your Player A was trying to pull. We're pretty much all saying the same thing with no room for interpretation: Player A is full of it.

Found it. UPA rules:

http://upatour.com/official-billiard-rules/u-s-10-ball-rules/

They also specifically say you may NOT touch the balls after the rack has been removed...which is a pet peeve of mine.

 

[zencues.com]

Ruling on this issue

I will make a ruling on this issue.


K2Kraze, it's the exact center of the foot spot or head spot or center spot,
that's where a ball should be spotted.

There is NO off-set spotting of the rack. The rack will placed "as if" all
fifteen balls are in the rack, and if that causes interference with the
15th ball, then the 15th ball goes on the head spot (or where ever it goes).


randy

 

[K2Kraze]

Good find, John.

Another application of the spotting rule.

And yes, ShakesSea, I thought Player A was pushing the envelope on what he thought the spot meant - leading to an interesting discussion so far.

Good points.


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[K2Kraze]

I will make a ruling on this issue.


K2Kraze, it's the exact center of the foot spot or head spot or center spot,
that's where a ball should be spotted.

There is NO off-set spotting of the rack. The rack will placed "as if" all
fifteen balls are in the rack, and if that causes interference with the
15th ball, then the 15th ball goes on the head spot (or where ever it goes).


randy

Thanks for checking in and sharing your thoughts, Randy.

I agree.

 

[dmgwalsh]

It's supposed to be on the exact center of the spot.

The outer radiuses of "the spot" are to assist the racker, since a ball on the spot sits right on top of it. The outer rings are to give the racker a reference for where that exact center of spot is.

Anyone who has played for any amount of time time knows when a rack is right and when it is off.

Fergoodnesssakes, guys in the Main Forum are talking for pages about guys feathering the head ball at 9ball creating microscopic differences in the alignment in the rack so the wing balls go.

What surprises me, though not that much when I consider who is involved, is that 14.1 players, perhaps the most persnickety pool players of the lot, suddenly develop laryngitis the it comes to noticing that some players are way off the mark, racking their own, in a 14.1 paid competition.

Lou Figueroa

"Great" point, Lou.

Lou, could you do me a favor and check out the racks in these Derby videos so we can figure out which of these guys is cheating the most? I'd do it, but since I am not retired, I have not even found the time to watch all these videos I am uploading.

https://youtu.be/letNDAtNmUc
https://youtu.be/EyrnsFT4E6E
https://youtu.be/2NPwAeaT9-E
https://youtu.be/H_VUr-YYx0M
https://youtu.be/D7BrFnwpfVY
https://youtu.be/SlsbAYLE9X0
https://youtu.be/zVnm3TybRes
https://youtu.be/RX5Lm38M3_c
https://youtu.be/dXb7fFtGwkY
https://youtu.be/FGwJ7uhEqvk
https://youtu.be/mI6kfNPaqco
https://youtu.be/73V0ByJnJV0

p.s. If you have the time, there are more from this year here and I will be uploading probably about 20 more within the next month.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfaC80gLaoP8vn0satUwuirY-dYyC8BD3

By the way, that was a nice "ad hominem" flavor that you added to your argument.

 

[Corwyn_8]

it's the definition of the SPOT itself that is missing.

Not sure what part of "the foot spot, where the foot string and the long string meet" you are missing.

There is no "Standard spot", and even if there was, the intent would be to get in the CENTER of it. Same as any other target.

It sounds like you are trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Dan White]

Player A needing to rack the 14 pocketed balls with their break ball very, very close to the rack - in their estimation. This break ball was NOT "within the rack" but again very, very close. Close enough that when they were racked (absent the head ball of course) the 1.25" spot was off center by as much as 1" --- and in this person's opinion and interpretation, had the apex ball been placed in this rack to test its validity, would have indeed been ON THE SPOT still - just on its outer most edge. Worth noting: the entire rack of 14 balls was obviously off center and above its "normal" position on the table had a rack outline been marked. It was that obvious.

It sounds like the ball was, in fact, inside the rack area based on this description. I think the discussion of the spot is irrelevant. The problem here is that you are playing straight pool on a table with no rack outline marked on the table. If the rack cannot be placed on the ink outline without moving the break ball, then it is in the rack. The spot doesn't matter.

 

[K2Kraze]

A few opinions have been shared in this thread so far, which was the sole purpose of the thread - To see what others thought about the role THE SPOT plays in racking 14 balls when the 15th ball (break ball) remains on the table NEAR the balls to be racked.

And to Corwyn_8, I can assure you that I am not "trying to manufacture controversy where there is none". It already exists. And by controversy I am interpreting that to mean the same thing as disagreement or contention - which is what came up during a recent match I was playing in by my opponent. He interpreted the spot one way and I another. What I am trying to do is offer a subject within this 14.1 section that has relevance to those of us that play this game and see what others think. It is my "contention" that the way the term SPOT is used within the published rules does indeed vary from one organization to another - and unless you are privy to all of those rules within all of those organizations, then one would never know how it MAY be interpreted or applied differently. And looking through the replies so far, there are indeed "allowances" within certain rules and various interpretations.

And to use your quoted reference within your reply, Corwin, "the foot spot, where the foot string and the long string meet" is exactly the POINT of this thread. THAT place where those two imaginary (not drawn on the actual table) strings cross is indeed the "spot" AND is conveniently covered up by a typically large pasted on Master Spot. SO ---- is this larger Master Spot (in its entirety - every micro position that makes up the whole Master Spot) indeed "the spot" as it is referenced within the rules?

Because if it is, then Player A that thought as long as any part of the apex ball touched "the spot" then it was well within the rules.

And IF the large Master Spot is really to be used as a reference only to get a ball as close as possible to the exact center of that place where the foot string and long string meet by using the concentric rings that make up the entire 1.25" spot (which is my personal interpretation at this point), then that works too.

Let me try asking this another way: can the (____ sized spot) be considered the best approximation of that imaginary line intersection to best place a ball or must we also get to the exact center of that (____ sized spot) or it is not considered ON the spot?

It's a discussion. I'm not intending to argue - because a few people have some good valid points and have showed us all that there are rule differences. Which, again, those differences and opinions is what I was after.

There are only so many opinions between two players on any subject ---- which is what makes AZB so perfect for gathering like-minded people together on any subject and creating an interaction - for those of us that care to participate in gathering and sharing opinions.

One last thing.

The spot always matters. Especially in 14.1

Why?

Because we will find 99.9% of the tables WE will play 14.1 on will have a spot of some sort on the baize and NOT an outline of a rack. Perhaps only 98%