curving an object ball....

[pt109]

Again, it is a shame you could not give Stan the same courtesy.

If you want the truth call me, and I will tell you to your face...or ear as it may be.

There are some strange posts in this thread....
...one of the strangest is ENGLISH responding to a man he has on ignore.
:scratchhead::lol:

 

[dr_dave]

I expect this thread to go away soon, so people may want to copy down the parts they find interesting.

I agree with you. Fortunately, I've documented your challenge shot along with some of the substantive content from this thread on the kick and bank shot effects resource page, so it won't be lost forever.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Excellent summary. Also, nobody has attacked John or shown him any disrespect, and everybody is well aware of his tremendous skill as a world-class banker.

Regardless, the challenge still stands, and not just for John but for anybody who claims a meaningful curve is possible. But if John can't do it, then probably nobody can. I will keep re-posting the quote below until the Naysayers either beat the challenge or give up with all of the immature smack talk, woofing, and immature schoolyard insults and innuendos.

That's why Bob's $1500 challenge is so excellent. It totally eliminates the potential for optical illusions or deception. If the ball is curving, it should be able to get around the middle peg. Place the board wherever you want and at any angle you want, place the middle peg wherever you want, use more than one middle peg if you want, hit the shot as many times as you want, move the board and middle peg(s) as many times as you want to make adjustments, use "little white donuts" and/or rail markers and/or lasers to help you with aiming and alignment adjustments, and even use a thicker board if you want. If this challenge cannot be beat after a large number of attempts and adjustments, then it is probably safe to say that bending a bank is probably not a reliable and important technique that can be used with confidence in an actual game situation.

Stop with all of the claims. Just do it, and post a video. It could potentially be worth $1500. Until that happens, I don't see any need for further smack talk, woofing, or immature schoolyard insults.

I honestly still think bending a bank a useful amount is possible with the right combination of cut angle, spin, speed, cue elevation, angle into the cushion, ball height at cushion contact, and ball/cushion/rail/cloth conditions (humidity included). I just haven't seen it yet.

Dave,

I think you may have misunderstood Bob's offer. Here is his original quote: "It's a lot of work to set up a test like this, so the banker needs to be rewarded. If anyone does this with me present and allows me to video tape a successful bank, I'll give that person $1000. If they can get me to do the shot, I'll give them another $500."

Bob must be there in person and he is the one taking the video ($1,000) and, if it's teachable where that person can show Bob how to do it, another $500. It does not appear that Bob was offering the money for a video of it being done without him being there. Just want to make sure that Bob's offer is clear so there is no disappointment if a video is published and no reward.

I may be wrong so it may be a good idea for you to or Bob to confirm this.

Actually, I think Bob would honor the $1000 offer if the video were totally convincing (and used the full-size 1" board). I think he would also honor the additional $500 offer if the video provided enough information to allow Bob to recreate the shot on his own. Bob certainly has enough pool skills to execute a shot if he knows how to hit it. And if Bob and I are both convinced that the video is legitimate (with no trickery), I would be happy to add an additional $500 to bring the total to $2000. Sadly, that's bigger than the top prize at many pool tournaments, and it won't take a full day or more of world-class play to win. You just need to be able to execute one shot!

Here's the problem......you thinking that your tests results are absolutely valid when your testing methodology does not consist of all the possible variables in the playing environment.
...
Just because you can not reproduce what others do just shows how much the human factor plays in performance of playing pool. It also means that it can not be done just because you can't do it.

I wholeheartedly admit that I failed to achieve a useful or even noticeable amount of post-rebound OB curve on any of the banks in my recent videos (NV H.2 and NV H.3). Freddy "The Beard" also failed to get post-rebound curve in the "bank shot bender" clips on his DVD, which I included in NV H.3. But this debate is not about me or Freddy. The point of the challenge, and of this thread, is: Can anybody do it? Originally, John was going to post a new video that put all of this to rest, but Bob and I are willing to pay up to $2000 to anybody who can show us in person or post a convincing video documenting the challenge being beat (without trickery).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Rubik's Cube]

Good afternoon, Dr Dave.

$2,000 is a lot of money, sir, certainly too much for me to ignore such a challenge. After all, what has any player got to lose apart from a little time and effort?

One question, however, if I may. Will you accept submissions played on an English pool or snooker table?

Kind regards,
RC.

 

[Rubik's Cube]

To tip my hand so to speak, I think the shot may stand a greater chance of success on the napped baize of a snooker table.

 

[jburkm002]

What is considered science in regards to pool? So many topics get argued back and forth. Then someone goes to the table and makes a video to prove their point. Arguement settled. Otherwise it's opinion vs opinion which in this forum goes nowhere. Let's say hypothetically everyone tries to curve the object ball but can't. Months go by and still no proof. Even with $2000 on the line to do it. It would kinda mean you can't just believe everything someone says on the internet. Now let's say someone post a legitimate video showing the curve. Now we would all know there is a shot we can learn. Imagine if someone said you could curve the object ball off a bank. You practice for years and never can do it. Just because you took someone's word for it. Who cares either way. Don't argue about it. PROVE IT.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Player]

Man, this has got worse than the "Swoop stroke" thread.

Similar in a lot of ways though.

Sad....

 

[dr_dave]

Good afternoon, Dr Dave.

$2,000 is a lot of money, sir, certainly too much for me to ignore such a challenge. After all, what has any player got to lose apart from a little time and effort?

One question, however, if I may. Will you accept submissions played on an English pool or snooker table?

Kind regards,
RC.

To tip my hand so to speak, I think the shot may stand a greater chance of success on the napped baize of a snooker table.

Sorry, but Bob's challenge clearly states: "The equipment and conditions have to be more or less tournament standard." And I think there is an implied assumption that we are referring to a pool table (since we are on a pool forum). Sorry.

Regardless, I agree with you that this should be an easy $2000 for somebody to make, especially if they are confident they can bend a pool bank shot a meaningful and useful amount.

Regards,
Dave

 

[pt109]

Man, this has got worse than the "Swoop stroke" thread.

Similar in a lot of ways though.

Sad....

Not really sad....it might not be ideal, but it's an exchanging of ideas, nonetheless.
....some good comes out of it for a lot of readers.

 

[Rubik's Cube]

Sorry, but Bob's challenge clearly states: "The equipment and conditions have to be more or less tournament standard." And I think there is an implied assumption that we are referring to a pool table (since we are on a pool forum). Sorry.

Regardless, I agree with you that this should be an easy $2000 for somebody to make, especially if they are confident they can bend a pool bank shot a meaningful and useful amount.

Regards,
Dave

That's fair enough, sir, no hard feelings.

I would have enjoyed tilting at your prize but, alas, don't have access at present to any American pool tables... well, none where it would be possible to set up my camera equipment anyway.

Good luck with the challenge.

 

[Rubik's Cube]

And if you or Mr Jewett change your minds about the snooker table, please let me know.

 

[ENGLISH!]

There are some strange posts in this thread....
...one of the strangest is ENGLISH responding to a man he has on ignore.
:scratchhead::lol:

What's so strange about that?

A post by him popped up & since he has been stalking me I surmised his post might be about me & sure enough it was.

&...

It was a totally personally trolling post with nothing to do with the topic of of this thread.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Not really sad....it might not be ideal, but it's an exchanging of ideas, nonetheless.
....some good comes out of it for a lot of readers.

"exchanging of ideas"

Is that not what a discussion forum is about?

But... has there been anything offered as to why an OB can not be curved in a bank shot?

No... other than some saying they have never seen one.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I expect this thread to go away soon, so people may want to copy down the parts they find interesting.

The only interesting part was John's original post.

 

[dr_dave]

has there been anything offer as to why an OB can not be curved in a bank shot?

I don't think what you are asking for is possible ... to explain why an OB cannot be curved a meaningful amount. It has yet to be demonstrated, but that doesn't mean it is not possible. I honestly hope to see it. I have also provided physical explanations for why an OB should be able to curve short. If you are others are curious, the explanations can be found, with related material, on the bending a bank shot resource page. But, honestly, theories are not very useful until they can be proven true (e.g., with experiments, in this case Bob's challenge shot).

For those who don't want to read through the resource page to find the theoretical physical explanations, here's a relevant excerpt:

It should be possible to bend a bank since the cushion nose can impart masse spin and topspin about an axis parallel to the rail, both of which can curve the OB's post-rebound path, but I think unique conditions would be required to get significant bend. I think the main reason why the bend is not occurring is that any topspin or masse spin imparted to the ball during cushion nose compression has an effect (and dissipates or "takes") only when the OB first interacts with the bed of the table before jumping into the air as a result of the cushion nose pushing the OB down into the table. Then the OB heads in a straight line, albeit in the air at first. The spin imparted by the cushion does contribute to shortening the bank, but it doesn't seem possible to get a useful amount of post-rebound curve in the OB path.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't think what you are asking for is possible ... to explain why an OB cannot be curved a meaningful amount. It has yet to be demonstrated, but that doesn't mean it is not possible. I honestly hope to see it. I have also provided physical explanations for why an OB should be able to curve short. If you are others are curious, the explanations can be found, with related material, on the bending a bank shot resource page. But, honestly, theories are not very useful until they can be proven true (e.g., with experiments, in this case Bob's challenge shot).

For those who don't want to read through the resource page to find the theoretical physical explanations, here's a relevant excerpt:

It should be possible to bend a bank since the cushion nose can impart masse spin and topspin about an axis parallel to the rail, both of which can curve the OB's post-rebound path, but I think unique conditions would be required to get significant bend. I think the main reason why the bend is not occurring is that any topspin or masse spin imparted to the ball during cushion nose compression has an effect (and dissipates or "takes") only when the OB first interacts with the bed of the table before jumping into the air as a result of the cushion nose pushing the OB down into the table. Then the OB heads in a straight line, albeit in the air at first. The spin imparted by the cushion does contribute to shortening the bank, but it doesn't seem possible to get a useful amount of post-rebound curve in the OB path.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

I was just referring to the comment about the "exchange of ideas" in the context of which it was being applied. I was not speaking in regard to you or anyone in particular.

However...

Your post here does nothing to tell one how to curve a ball short & that is the likes of which what another member has been saying & of which I am in agreement.

You also almost always downplay matters with words like insignificant & practical application & the like.

What is the difference between a ball titing out off a side pocket point & titing in off a side pocket point.

We're playing a game in which a mm can be & very often is extremely significant.

So... a 2 mm curve can be quite significant & have a huge practical application.

I sincerely hope that you can see & understand what I am saying & not take offense.

I respect the time & effort that you have invested in building your extensive library & it certainly can have it's uses for certain individuals & the needs that they perceive themselves as having.

But before there could even be any discussion as to how John banks the way he does the science is brought in & the results are inconclusive because the camera was moving, blah, blah, blah.

And all of a sudden another pro player is overwhelmed by the 'science' questioning & dictates.

So... the opportunity perhaps for members to possibly learn something from a world class banker like John is squelched.

Again, I hope you can see & understand the big picture & what I & others see.

Regards & Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

 

[Worminator]

It makes complete sense that the default stroke for a bank should be very firm unless you have a reason to do something else.

No true.... there are many, many banks that come up playing bank pool that cannot be made with a firm stroke. Unless by saying "unless you have a reason to do something else", you mean make the specific bank shot at hand...

 

[dr_dave]

I don't think what you are asking for is possible ... to explain why an OB cannot be curved a meaningful amount. It has yet to be demonstrated, but that doesn't mean it is not possible. I honestly hope to see it. I have also provided physical explanations for why an OB should be able to curve short. If you are others are curious, the explanations can be found, with related material, on the bending a bank shot resource page. But, honestly, theories are not very useful until they can be proven true (e.g., with experiments, in this case Bob's challenge shot).

For those who don't want to read through the resource page to find the theoretical physical explanations, here's a relevant excerpt:

It should be possible to bend a bank since the cushion nose can impart masse spin and topspin about an axis parallel to the rail, both of which can curve the OB's post-rebound path, but I think unique conditions would be required to get significant bend. I think the main reason why the bend is not occurring is that any topspin or masse spin imparted to the ball during cushion nose compression has an effect (and dissipates or "takes") only when the OB first interacts with the bed of the table before jumping into the air as a result of the cushion nose pushing the OB down into the table. Then the OB heads in a straight line, albeit in the air at first. The spin imparted by the cushion does contribute to shortening the bank, but it doesn't seem possible to get a useful amount of post-rebound curve in the OB path.

... before there could even be any discussion as to how John banks the way he does the science is brought in & the results are inconclusive because the camera was moving, blah, blah, blah.

And all of a sudden another pro player is overwhelmed by the 'science' questioning & dictates

The $2000 Bank Shot Bend Challenge has nothing to do with John, Freddy The Beard, or me. John started this thread, but it has become much larger than he originally intended. In other words, it's not just about him anymore. Please try to accept that.

The challenge was created to see if anybody (not just John) can create a meaningful and useful amount of bank-shot post-rebound curve. IMO, only after it has been clearly demonstrated to be useful should much further discussion or debate take place. And if we ever get to that point, Bob will be out of $1500 and I will be out of $500.

BTW, I honestly hope somebody can beat the challenge, because Bob and I truly want to see it, especially if we can also learn to do it (after seeing it). $2000 would be a small price to pay for that.

Regards,
Dave

 

[john coloccia]

No true.... there are many, many banks that come up playing bank pool that cannot be made with a firm stroke. Unless by saying "unless you have a reason to do something else", you mean make the specific bank shot at hand...

That's exactly what I mean. I'm not a good banker, but pretty much all the good bankers and people that have been playing a while (I've been playing a while) seem to use a firm stroke when they can. It's just easier to judge, I think.

 

[dr_dave]

That's exactly what I mean. I'm not a good banker, but pretty much all the good bankers and people that have been playing a while (I've been playing a while) seem to use a firm stroke when they can. It's just easier to judge, I think.

There are many reasons why a firm stroke is used when the game situation doesn't call for slow speed. They are all listed here:

advantages of fast speed with bank shots

Enjoy,
Dave