Center Ball

[Johnnyt]

Yes, top pros can hit the CB anywhere to throw the OB or get unnatural position. But most of them would rather get the correct angle on the next OB, so they can hit very close to center ball. Esp on long shots. The first 5 years I played just about every shot with English. When I started playing 3 balls ahead and getting on the correct side of the next OB, my misses went down big time. Johnnyt

 

[ENGLISH!]

The thing is that even 'natural' position can be enhanced with a bit of spin here & there & to make sure that one does not get out of position.

Even the TOI is using an off center hit with a plan.

As was posted, many "think" they are hitting center when they really are not & when they miss & don't know why, that can be the culprit... the squirt from the unintended off center hit... with no plan for it.

Just food for thought.

 

[magicrat69210]

when i say beginners should stay away from english i mean on more difficult shots.....if the ball is 2 feet from the pocket everyone should use whatever spin they need for optimal position.....if the ball is 4 feet from the pocket and the cue ball another 4 feet away a beginner may want to focus on making the ball and staying at the table then tring to spin a difficult shot for position.....just my humble opinion i could b wrong

 

[ENGLISH!]

when i say beginners should stay away from english i mean on more difficult shots.....if the ball is 2 feet from the pocket everyone should use whatever spin they need for optimal position.....if the ball is 4 feet from the pocket and the cue ball another 4 feet away a beginner may want to focus on making the ball and staying at the table then tring to spin a difficult shot for position.....just my humble opinion i could b wrong

Naturally, each individual will have to make their own determination as to how they are going to shoot any given shot.

But your scenario here is exactly why I say that one should use english asap.

That way they will have a broader range of shots that they will become comfortable using english & hopefully never be at the mercy of a layout where center just won't get it done.

Just more food for thought.

 

[GideonF]

Yes, top pros can hit the CB anywhere to throw the OB or get unnatural position. But most of them would rather get the correct angle on the next OB, so they can hit very close to center ball.

You must watch different pros than I do. From what I've seen they actually prefer to spin the ball - most notable when they do so on the money ball with no need for position.

I remember a match Buddy was commenting on in which he mentioned he always prefers to hit a ball with low outside (low left being his favourite I think).

Gideon


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[HawaiianEye]

You must watch different pros than I do. From what I've seen they actually prefer to spin the ball - most notable when they do so on the money ball with no need for position.

I remember a match Buddy was commenting on in which he mentioned he always prefers to hit a ball with low outside (low left being his favourite I think).

Gideon


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I always play position to put the cue ball in a designated spot even if I'm shooting the money ball. It helps to maintain focus and not let the cue ball run wild.

Outside English is sometimes called "helping English" and low slows the cue ball down.

 

[Scott Lee]

spartan...Unless you were there to witness this alleged transgression, please don't spread rumors about Mike Massey being some sort of rack mechanic. He isn't. He's a professional tournament player, and professional trick shot artist..and an honorable one at that. He simply would not "rig" the rack...period. :nono:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

But I read some story here that some years ago at a tourney vs Ga Young Kim, he broke few golden breaks in a row which turned off GYK . LOL
i am guessing he must be master racker who can teach pros a few tricks

 

[Tramp Steamer]

spartan...Unless you were there to witness this alleged transgression, please don't spread rumors about Mike Massey being some sort of rack mechanic. He isn't. He's a professional tournament player, and professional trick shot artist..and an honorable one at that. He simply would not "rig" the rack...period. :nono:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Agree one hundred per cent, and he's a true Southern gentleman as well. :smile:

 

[spartan]

spartan...Unless you were there to witness this alleged transgression, please don't spread rumors about Mike Massey being some sort of rack mechanic. He isn't. He's a professional tournament player, and professional trick shot artist..and an honorable one at that. He simply would not "rig" the rack...period. :nono:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Excuse me, no sir, not spreading rumors- just restating what was previously posted in this thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=157011

 

[theluckfactor]

The pro's know where center of the ball is...I used to... now I realize how hard it is to be dead straight.

I thought Willie Mosconi tried never to use more then a half tip away from center ball???

 

[Drop The Rock]

oh here we go.

Dennis Orcollo stated in a TAR podcast that he preferred to use zero english when he could. A couple of pros I know use TOO "a touch of outside" (patent pending). On shots they are just trying to make they usually do this. When their cueball is sliding they tend to do the same thing to get the cue ball off the rail. SVB has been know to do this as well. I'm not talking about a lot of English. If you asked the pros (besides Earl) how many tips of English they preferred: 1 or 2. A majority would say 1. The simple asner to why is because its easier to control the cueball. Using vertical axis with 1/2 to 1 tip of left or right hand English is much easier than using 1 to 2 tips every shot.

I use outside on a lot of shots to negate the effects of throw.

I know CJ has his methods and reasons but if someone could give me a few reasons why TOI is heads and shoulders better than TOO I'd be surprised.

I love pool and all its games but when it comes to fundamentals snooker has it pretty hammered down. The stance doesn't work for pool as well because pool tables are lower. Tepchaya Unu (I think thats how you spell it) Ronnie O. and Stephen Hendry are my favorite snooker players because of their mechanics.

I wouldn't be surprised if snooker players used TOO because you have to either hit the center or pro side of the pocket or the ball wont drop. The ball is more likely to drop when it has running English imparted to it.

Can I get a word from some snooker experts?

 

[ENGLISH!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not preaching one way or the other. I'm just trowing out some things for consideration.

I started using english when I was 13 a few weeks after being introduced to the game. I think I started with outside english because it seemed more natural & perhaps it was what I noticed an older gentleman using. Then I saw him use inside english & I started using it.

Since I was hitting off center for the purpose of using the spin the focus was on the speed that would allow the spin to be useful. Too fast & throw is minimal or not at all. If one is using spin to position the CB one is probably not using speed to do so but wants the spin to move the ball.

So... I had used both outside & inside spin for more than 45 years when CJ Wiley started talking about TOI here on AZB.

The concept is NOT the same as inside english for the purpose of spin.

I had never consciously thought about CB squirt during the 45 years even though I was subconsciously allowing for it with my aim.

The TOI allows for a more firm hit on the CB while still keeping control over it without it getting away. It also allows for a more full 'aim' because the squirt will add cut to the OB.

It is an entirely different approach that is very viable.

TOI or TOO has advantages that center hit or attempted center hit simply does not allow, at least not in my opinion.

Just food for thought.

Best Wishes 2 You & Yours & ALL.

 

[LAMas]

Stun and CIT can have negative results if you like geometric angles to the pocket.
I do and like outside english to get there.

I also like inside aimed at the contact point on the OB on thick cuts.

Be well.

 

[Cornerman]

Dennis Orcollo stated in a TAR podcast that he preferred to use zero english when he could. A couple of pros I know use TOO "a touch of outside" (patent pending). On shots they are just trying to make they usually do this. When their cueball is sliding they tend to do the same thing to get the cue ball off the rail. SVB has been know to do this as well. I'm not talking about a lot of English. If you asked the pros (besides Earl) how many tips of English they preferred: 1 or 2. A majority would say 1. The simple asner to why is because its easier to control the cueball. Using vertical axis with 1/2 to 1 tip of left or right hand English is much easier than using 1 to 2 tips every shot.

I use outside on a lot of shots to negate the effects of throw.

I know CJ has his methods and reasons but if someone could give me a few reasons why TOI is heads and shoulders better than TOO I'd be surprised.

I love pool and all its games but when it comes to fundamentals snooker has it pretty hammered down. The stance doesn't work for pool as well because pool tables are lower. Tepchaya Unu (I think thats how you spell it) Ronnie O. and Stephen Hendry are my favorite snooker players because of their mechanics.

I wouldn't be surprised if snooker players used TOO because you have to either hit the center or pro side of the pocket or the ball wont drop. The ball is more likely to drop when it has running English imparted to it.

Can I get a word from some snooker experts?

If they say, "1 tip," they either are lying to themselves or have never seen themselves shoot. I've watched Dennis as much as anyone. He shoots a silly amount of inside English shots.

And you can't patent or coin TOO. That was the de facto standard before CJ's TOI.

Freddie <~~~ would rather talk realties not hypotheticals

 

[Cameron Smith]

Dennis Orcollo stated in a TAR podcast that he preferred to use zero english when he could. A couple of pros I know use TOO "a touch of outside" (patent pending). On shots they are just trying to make they usually do this. When their cueball is sliding they tend to do the same thing to get the cue ball off the rail. SVB has been know to do this as well. I'm not talking about a lot of English. If you asked the pros (besides Earl) how many tips of English they preferred: 1 or 2. A majority would say 1. The simple asner to why is because its easier to control the cueball. Using vertical axis with 1/2 to 1 tip of left or right hand English is much easier than using 1 to 2 tips every shot.

I use outside on a lot of shots to negate the effects of throw.

I know CJ has his methods and reasons but if someone could give me a few reasons why TOI is heads and shoulders better than TOO I'd be surprised.

I love pool and all its games but when it comes to fundamentals snooker has it pretty hammered down. The stance doesn't work for pool as well because pool tables are lower. Tepchaya Unu (I think thats how you spell it) Ronnie O. and Stephen Hendry are my favorite snooker players because of their mechanics.

I wouldn't be surprised if snooker players used TOO because you have to either hit the center or pro side of the pocket or the ball wont drop. The ball is more likely to drop when it has running English imparted to it.

Can I get a word from some snooker experts?

I remember reading that Graeme Dott uses something like a touch of inside, but his reasoning was by intentionally choosing to use side he can compensate for it as opposed to playing centre and accidentally putting side on the ball.

That said, for most of us you don't use side unless there is a positional purpose. I can't speak for all players, but touch of inside or outside is not a thing used in snooker.

You don't use side as much in snooker, but that's partly because you play a lot of stun shots and don't reach a rail as often as one would in pool. However, the pros especially use a quite a bit of it, and I think it really simplifies the game for them by maximizing their room for error in cue ball placement.

 

[Ratta]

Hi there,

first: if english helps or needed...of course you should use it (before someone starting a discussion about this with a typical "yes but.." response


In my opinion hitting center ball is the way to go- first develope a repeatable straight stroke which allows you to send Whitey from A to B (pool sounds so simple )

By using "just" the vertical axis, it allows you more than anything else to use *natural* paths for playing postion- and learnin these routes and using these routes will pay off for a lifetime.
Enough examples outthere- especially in europe over the past decade so many young players came out of nowhere with a brilliant technics- hittin the cueball so well.
For me "being able" to hit the cueball where you *want it to hit* is the key for successful pool. Hittin the cueball center (or vertical axis) gives you a so much higher percentage of doin less mistakes-

but again- english will of course take it s role in your game- but just if needed. less is often much more- especially in pool

just my 2 cents-

kind regards from overseas,
have a smooth stroke,

INgo

 

[Straightpool_99]

Do any top players play exclusively, or almost exclusively center. C. J. said
no, and I can't think of any. Not snooker, pool. The best player I knew that
played that way was Billy Stroud. So many here say this is the best way.
Well why don't top players play that way. It makes sense to play that way
as you take out at the least two variables, deflection and throw. Now the tables
are so fast and it easy to move the cue ball around, Not like years ago when
you had to spin it to get around the table. So it must be easier to aim using
some sort of spin. If it were easier they would hit CB on the game ball sense
position is no needed. But they don't.
jack

Playing all center ball...I keep hearing about it, but I never see it, not any good players anyway. Yang probably comes closest. If you truly could play 9/10 ball with center ball only, there is no doubt in my mind that you'd be the greatest player that ever lived. Nobody can do it at the highest level, it's impossible. You'd need perfect angles on every shot..good luck with that. How often do you get a shot that is close to perfect but need that little bit of english to adjust the angle? I don't know about you, but I get a shot like that almost every rack. You'll get some center ball racks, sure, but what are you going to do about those other ones? Also, I do not buy into the idea that slamming the ball in with center is higher percentage than shooting slower and letting the spin move the ball. Guess that's why I'm not a top player like you guys.

I'd like to add something to this post: Lot's of people talk about straight pool and center ball, well a lot of the straightpool breakshots are shot with english, even the bloody opening break for Christ's sake. Off angle combinations, throwing in balls that wouldn't go otherwise, going into clusters and to the rail, hitting clusters by using spin and the same "angle adjustments" as in EVERY pool game. There are a million shots in that game that benefit from using english. Can you get around that? Sure, if you can make any cutshot, no matter how difficult, if you can hit every kick/bank, then yeah and btw I hope you like to shoot shots from below the rack to the top pockets, that's going to happen a lot. Of course if you get a kick/bank that needs to be held up or lengthened then, you have to shoot a different bank or play safe (which btw, also could be more difficult without spin). You'd make the game a lot more difficult, but I suppose in that game, it could be done (why you would do that I don't know).

And of course snooker...let's just say that there is more spin being used there than people think.

If a beginner comes up to me and asks if he should use all center ball, I'd look at his game first. If he's hopeless, can't make a ball, and practices maybe once a month, then I'd recommend center only. Simply because of the fact that he'd never get the time to ajust to using english. In every other case I'd say no. Learn center first, for the first few months, then start learning english. You people are not doing beginners any favours by claiming the game is played with all center ball. It's nonsense and you know it! It's like telling a boxer that if I practices hard enough, he'll never get hit! Get real!

 

[trob]

Spin does not have anything to do with making aiming easier or more difficult. Its mainly about where they want the cue ball to go, but it also helps pocket balls too. If you watch pros aim on the game ball they are usually using a little "outside" spin and usually draw too. The "outside" spin helps 'throw' the object ball towards the pocket and the draw because it seems like they prefer to draw the cue ball to the center of the nearest rail rather than going forward 1 or 2 rails. More than likely you will need to adjust your aim somewhat depending on whether you are using center or inside/outside spin.

. You find your spot but then have to adjust your spot based on the english your putting on the ball. That extra step makes it more difficult.

 

[Pidge]

There is a misconception in snooker that you should avoid side spin unless there is no other option to get from A to B. Most of the time people take this too literally and will try to fizz the white to point B with ridiculous amounts power. This makes for more misses than hitting softer but spinning the crap out of the white to get to point B. Why? A slower and more deliberate cue action is a more accurate cue action. Everyone has a percentage of their max cue power that is their cut off point without sacrificing cueing accuracy. Mine is roughly 70%. A Judd Trump will be higher no doubt in the 80% region. So if I have to hit harder than 70% of my max then I choose a different shot, one that usually involves a lot of spin.

In snooker (and pool for that matter) people take things too literally. People get taught to stick to centre ball when starting out and as amateurs. For good reason. If you can't accurately hit centre ball then you can't accurately hit with side spin. In both cases a miss is highly likely. The difference is though, when trying to hit centre ball you can see how the white reacts better. You know if you hit a little, a lot or a hell of a lot to one side by how the ball spins after contact. You can then learn from this and tweak aspects of your fundamentals to fix the issue leading to a more accurate cue action. When using side spin you know the white is going to spin one way, so it makes it hard to judge how the white should be reacting after contact and how inaccurate your cue action was.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Playing all center ball...I keep hearing about it, but I never see it, not any good players anyway. Yang probably comes closest. If you truly could play 9/10 ball with center ball only, there is no doubt in my mind that you'd be the greatest player that ever lived. Nobody can do it at the highest level, it's impossible. You'd need perfect angles on every shot..good luck with that. How often do you get a shot that is close to perfect but need that little bit of english to adjust the angle? I don't know about you, but I get a shot like that almost every rack. You'll get some center ball racks, sure, but what are you going to do about those other ones? Also, I do not buy into the idea that slamming the ball in with center is higher percentage than shooting slower and letting the spin move the ball. Guess that's why I'm not a top player like you guys.

I'd like to add something to this post: Lot's of people talk about straight pool and center ball, well a lot of the straightpool breakshots are shot with english, even the bloody opening break for Christ's sake. Off angle combinations, throwing in balls that wouldn't go otherwise, going into clusters and to the rail, hitting clusters by using spin and the same "angle adjustments" as in EVERY pool game. There are a million shots in that game that benefit from using english. Can you get around that? Sure, if you can make any cutshot, no matter how difficult, if you can hit every kick/bank, then yeah and btw I hope you like to shoot shots from below the rack to the top pockets, that's going to happen a lot. Of course if you get a kick/bank that needs to be held up or lengthened then, you have to shoot a different bank or play safe (which btw, also could be more difficult without spin). You'd make the game a lot more difficult, but I suppose in that game, it could be done (why you would do that I don't know).

And of course snooker...let's just say that there is more spin being used there than people think.

If a beginner comes up to me and asks if he should use all center ball, I'd look at his game first. If he's hopeless, can't make a ball, and practices maybe once a month, then I'd recommend center only. Simply because of the fact that he'd never get the time to ajust to using english. In every other case I'd say no. Learn center first, for the first few months, then start learning english. You people are not doing beginners any favours by claiming the game is played with all center ball. It's nonsense and you know it! It's like telling a boxer that if I practices hard enough, he'll never get hit! Get real!

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

I'll just stop with that before I get myself into trouble... again.:wink: