Center Ball

Cornerman said:
If they say, "1 tip," they either are lying to themselves or have never seen themselves shoot. I've watched Dennis as much as anyone. He shoots a silly amount of inside English shots.

And you can't patent or coin TOO. That was the de facto standard before CJ's TOI.

Freddie <~~~ would rather talk realties not hypotheticals
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Goddamn it Freddie have a sense of humor with me! The TOO thing was completely sarcastic lol. I apologize though because I realize we deal with a lot of interesting people on AZ.

You may be very correct. Pros probably just use whatever is needed to leave themselves the correct angle for their next shot
 
Jack,

I still play mostly with center ball but I am not the only one.

Many top players look like they are lining up with English but when you watch the cue ball after the shot you see it was center ball after all.

You need English to play position sometimes or to make a ball that is not ON otherwise.

Moscow played center ball. Taylor banked with center ball.
Two very good reasons to use it.

How about Buddy Hall. Simple shots simple position. Few mistakes.

Bill S.
 
when I got some lessons from ray martin he showed me how to get position using different types of center ball, changing the angle off the rail by moving up or down just a hair made a big difference. I found it much harder than using english to get the angles needed for shape. I got the feeling he played that way most of the time when he played straight pool. you had to know how high or low to hit the cue ball to get the angle correct so you had to be very precise when playing center ball shape.
 
bstroud said:
How about Buddy Hall. Simple shots simple position. Few mistakes.

Bill S.
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Another head scratcher.... I've seen Buddy play just like everyone else. He was the first player I saw that convinced me that pros play with way more spin than amateurs ever do. We must be looking at different shots.

Freddie <~~~ not blind to the truth
 
For me....the bottom line is..
...you must strive to hit the cue ball where you intend to.

So if you can't hit center ball....you're always rolling the dice...try slot machines.
 
I just wonder how many truly think that they can put the center millimeter of a THREE(3) millimeter diameter tip contact patch consistently on the exact center axis of a 2 1/4 inch cue ball, especially at the end of a multi hour session.

I'm not saying once in while or when paying specific attention to doing it for a test or something, but while actually playing the game & all of the many many shots.

I would think that if most that think they are hitting center ball went under a high scrutiny investigation they would be surprised at how seldom they actually hit center ball.

I would also think that those that think that they hit center ball consistently might blame misses on poor alignment or aim instead of a squirted cue ball.

The human mind & body are amazing entities & can do amazing things...
so I am not saying that it is impossible or anything like that.

I'm just offering up some food for thought.

The bottom line is that the individual is happy with how they are playing. If playing center ball makes one happy & satisfied, then that is all that matters & counts.

Best Wishes to ALL,
Rick

PS If I was only allowed to play the game using center ball, I am rather sure that I would quit the game knowing that there are things that can be done that I am not allowed to do.
 
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Cornerman said:
Another head scratcher.... I've seen Buddy play just like everyone else. He was the first player I saw that convinced me that pros play with way more spin than amateurs ever do. We must be looking at different shots.

Freddie <~~~ not blind to the truth
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My definition of Center ball is low, middle and high.
English is when you use side spin.

I don't know how Buddy plays now but he didn't use a lot of side spin in the past.

Neither did Lassiter and many good players in the past.

Many of todays player line up with spin but end up hitting the Verticle center of the cue ball.

Bill S.
 
Earlier today I showed my agreement with most of what SP99 posted.

There were a few posts around that of SP99's that I sort of wanted to address but knew that if I did, it would probably cause a stir. So.. I shied away.

Then I just saw this elsewhere. It is from a student to CJ Wiley.

Last night I played some of the best pool of my life. I can honestly say with all my training, lessons, and coaching with some of the best professional pool players in the world throughout the last 20+ years. CJ Wiley has taught me the real secrets of this game and gave me everything I need to know to bring my game to a level I only dreamed about..(with the right practice of course). Most pro's have tried to give little pieces here and there to drag out lessons and make more money. Within 3 lessons I've learned more REAL tips, techniques, and how to really play this game than all of my lessons combined. That may seem a little farfetched but after every lesson I went and studied matches of all the top pro's currently playing and every single one of them are using every single thing he taught me. Thanks for all your help buddy

PS This post has nothing to do with John Brumback's post or him. It just coincidently fell behind his post.
 
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bstroud said:
My definition of Center ball is low, middle and high.
English is when you use side spin.

I don't know how Buddy plays now but he didn't use a lot of side spin in the past.

Neither did Lassiter and many good players in the past.

Many of todays player line up with spin but end up hitting the Verticle center of the cue ball.

Bill S.
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i first saw Buddy shoot in 1988. He used plenty more side spin than any amateur ever in the history of the universe. Pretty sure he hasn't changed.
 
Cornerman said:
If they say, "1 tip," they either are lying to themselves or have never seen themselves shoot. I've watched Dennis as much as anyone. He shoots a silly amount of inside English shots.
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Agree on this. I took a lesson from Dennis. Most shots he took and nearly every shot he told me to take required English.

Not using English would be like using half a tool box. Maybe you can still do the job but your options will be severely limited.

To be a good player, English is necessary. To be a good player, you must master the use of English.
 
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TATE said:
Agree on this. I took a lesson from Dennis. Most shots he took and nearly every shot he told me to take required English.

Not using English would be like using half a tool box. Maybe you can still do the job but your options will be severely limited.

To be a good player, English is necessary. To be a good player, you must master the use of English.
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Agree here of course-
With my post i wanted to *show* my expirience from what i see in the past years- meaning what s happening in the past years "here on the other side of the pond".

For me there are tendences, that the basic fundamentals have much more weight nowadays here than ever. The "Education" has more and more quality (fundamentals wise) At Eurotour or in other bigger tournaments you see more and more *unknown* young strong players comin up- and somehow they (in my opinion) are all trying to keep it more and more simple. Simple in a way, that many are going more and more for "the right angles" and trying to use natural routes and stun-shots ( so i used the words "vertical axis instead of center ball" ). And i m amazed how straight some of these young guys are shooting- and with how much speed sometimes- giving a shit on distance or how tough the pockets are (lol).

Of course english is also used by these guys- but so very less as it would have been a decade ago...to me it s impressive.


The topic is to me interesting- very seriously- but to make here a general statement is difficult imo--
And my point of view and thoughts are of course just objective :-)


May everyone have a smooth stroke,
kindest regars from overseas,

Ingo
 
I've been thinking about this for a while. I naturally learned how to play by lining up the ball on the correct line, or perhaps a bit of an undercut, and then applying left or right spin to counteract throw. It is a crutch that I use/used to make shots, not to get position. I often put left or right spin on straight-in shots because it feels more comfortable, which from an outsider's perspective is crazy.

My 8-ball game is all right but this really messes with 9-ball, especially on 9-foot tables. You simply can't consistently make long shots at high speeds if you're spinning the crap out of the ball. And obviously at higher rates of speed there is less or no throw.

At any rate this is an interesting way to play a couple games to see how straight you're stroking. I was usually able to get where I needed to be with something close to center ball. The problem was actually hitting it in the center, which felt unnatural and difficult.
 
It really matters what game you're playing and on what table as to how much you should be using sidespin to get where you need to go.

Playing 10 ball on a 9 foot table? You're doing something wrong if you're putting sidespin on everything. You can get the ball anywhere on the table creating your angles with follow/stun/draw + speed control, and keeping up your ability to flawlessly control those things is what separates AAA players from from lesser creatures who use sidespin to take shortcuts. Thorsten Hohmann is one of the most amazing players when it comes to speed control going three rails around a table through traffic, and when he's playing 9-ball and 10-ball, he sees all the angles the CB has using only top/bottom tip placement then runs the ball as far as he needs to so one of those angles puts him on the next shot, rarely manipulating the angle with sidespin. Honorable mention to Oliwia Czuprynska, she also has frighteningly good control of landing the cueball on a dime after going 4+ rails around the table.


With 14.1 and 15-ball Rotation, even the best thought-out run is probably going to require some tricky sidespin manoeuvrering on several shots in a rack. Efren Reyes is a master at that. Cleaning up an opponent's weak break on bar box 8-ball also definitely requires very good control of sidespin to navigate the problems.

I personally am trying to use a little less sidespin when I play so I can work on the other skills. With some of my extra-low deflection skinny shafts I have become lazy, taking the shortest possible path to the next shot even if it requires reversing the CB off a rail using extreme sidespin. Sure it works for running out an easy rack and I can stay straighter on my shots because I'll just use heavy sidespin to open up the angles to get to the next shot. But my safety play with longer shots has suffered because wiggling my way from shot to shot by heavily manipulating the angle lets me be a little lax with speed control and speed control is everything in a down-table safety.
 
Don't believe hype

I've been around the best players alive for almost 60 years and don't believe the bs when someone tells you to use only center English. I don't no a single player who ever run a rack of pool who uses only center English, so if someone is advising you to do this, seek advice elsewhere !!!!
 
GreenFeltguy said:
I've been around the best players alive for almost 60 years and don't believe the bs when someone tells you to use only center English. I don't no a single player who ever run a rack of pool who uses only center English, so if someone is advising you to do this, seek advice elsewhere !!!!
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Absolutely correct GFguy!..If you don't master the use of English (sidespin, high, low, etc.) early on, you will never be even a mediocre player!..In fact, about the only time I don't use English is on certain stun shots..
I may not be the greatest player in the world, but I would love to play anyone who uses only center ball, any game on a pool or snooker table, for all the $$$$ they could bring! :yeah:

PS..That would be like using a 2" pen knife in a knife fight, when you have an axe & a spear at your disposal :rolleyes:
 
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TATE said:
Agree on this. I took a lesson from Dennis. Most shots he took and nearly every shot he told me to take required English.
Not using English would be like using half a tool box. Maybe you can still do the job but your options will be severely limited.
To be a good player, English is necessary. To be a good player, you must master the use of English.
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Without a doubt. One of the first things we learned, as kids, was how side-spin helped pool play. :)
 
If anyone ever was able to play perfect pool, they would only use centerball. Angles and speed would allow them to play perfect shape. Noone can play that way for long.
To be a complete player mastering english is a given.
For most players,less english would be better!
 
jackpot said:
It makes sense to play that way
as you take out at the least two variables, deflection and throw.
jack
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There are many variables within those variables.

Swerve variables - how high or low ball is hit, how far off center, shot distance, shot speed, cloth slickness, chalk
Deflection variables - shaft stiffness, shot distance, how far off center, chalk
Throw variables - amount of cut, ball slickness (clean /dirty), amount of spin, shot speed.
Shape - If you are using right/left then you are either throwing the ball or plan on hitting a rail to get shape. So now you have cloth, spin, approach angle and speed to also factor in when it makes contact to the rail.

We take so many things for granted as we shoot and one would not think of all those things on every shot, but they would have an affect on every shot none-the-less. We adjust over time, but each different table cloth or set of balls makes an adjustment necessary.

I am of the belief that most people try to work the cue ball around the table with spin way too much and that you can get to 95%+ of your shots by simply changing your tangent line off the object ball by using follow or draw along with speed. Sure there are times you will need to throw a ball so you can hit it more full and maintain better shape or have it spin off a rail to help widen or lessen the rebound for a tight window on the next shot, but it is not nearly as often as we think.

I would challenge anyone that uses spin constantly to spend some quality time refusing to use ANY spin for ALL shoots and see how your game goes after you adjust. I would be surprised if you said you are less consistent without spin then you are with spin. I know it made a big difference in my game when I started doing that many months ago. One of my bigger battles still today is trying to resist the urge to use spin still.
 
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