At what speed is "if it ain't broke don't fix it"?

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
Hi -

I'm wondering at what speed or ghost level let's say did you stop worrying so much about fundamentals of your stroke, stance, etc. and just embrace the oddities of yourself?

I have a hitch in my stroke, where I water pump a bit almost like SVB but without all the skill. For about 6 months now I have been working hard to remove this, at the price of being loose and accurate. It feels like I'm fighting myself and that little hitch seems to stop my from rotating the ball join in my shoulder for some reason.

When I was playing at a 3 ball ghost level, this made sense to me - my fundamentals were key. I'm now beating the 5 ball regularly and I wonder if it's time to just be myself and try to improve my game without so much worry about the 'textbook' stroke..

tl;dr -> When did you feel like you were playing well enough to stop tinkering with the foundation of your game?
 
Many shots can be played just using stop shot speeds.
This includes shots for CB positioning. Think about the
shot and not your fundamentals when actually playing.

.
 
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Hi -

I'm wondering at what speed or ghost level let's say did you stop worrying so much about fundamentals of your stroke, stance, etc. and just embrace the oddities of yourself?

I have a hitch in my stroke, where I water pump a bit almost like SVB but without all the skill. For about 6 months now I have been working hard to remove this, at the price of being loose and accurate. It feels like I'm fighting myself and that little hitch seems to stop my from rotating the ball join in my shoulder for some reason.

When I was playing at a 3 ball ghost level, this made sense to me - my fundamentals were key. I'm now beating the 5 ball regularly and I wonder if it's time to just be myself and try to improve my game without so much worry about the 'textbook' stroke..

tl;dr -> When did you feel like you were playing well enough to stop tinkering with the foundation of your game?[/QUOTE

I think I know what your asking and I'd say its a personal decision different for each person. Now I know I will take some heat for this : There is a camp that totally believes constant ongoing lessons \ training is the only way to go. I do not feel this way. I think lessons are good for beginners but I believe after you know what's going on and what you need to do the rest comes from time on the table. I believe each person needs to develope their own unique stroke, whatever works best for them. I don't think the cookie cutter approach with all the same strokes, fundamentals, systems etc is the way to go. One of the things that backs up my theory is just look at a lot of the best players in the world. Many of them have what some would call an odd stroke. Many do not have the cookie cutter fumdemantals taught by all the instructors. I'm not against instructors, I think they have much good information to offer - I'm just not sure that's the best way to go after reaching a certain level. Anyway I do agree with you, what's the point of sacrificing your game just to be able to say " you're doing it right "?
 
Thanks - My game isn't bad, and I'm comfortable with stop shots, speed, etc. In fact my tip placement is accurate most of the time even with the little up/down hitch. (as tested with chalk mark drills on striped balls)

However, when I try and smooth out that hitch in practice, I find my tip accuracy suffers greatly because I can't seem to keep my shoulder joint from 'rolling' outward.

I'm inclined at this point to say that's my stroke, and just continue to refine it and practice it so it's rock solid consistent, but am I setting myself up for a plateau in my skill? Would I be limited by this in the future, which would make it worthwhile to rebuild my stroke?

Do you guys overthink it like me in search of improvement, at some point I imagine most good players just let it go - judging by the variety of strokes I see, many of which are textbook 'bad' form...

b
 
I'm just not sure that's the best way to go after reaching a certain level. Anyway I do agree with you, what's the point of sacrificing your game just to be able to say " you're doing it right "?

Thanks for the response, you re stated my question in a much clearer way as I quoted above...
 
Bill...As I told you, there is no "textbook" stroke...there's only YOUR stroke. You can make it whatever you want it to be. I showed you how to define, identity, and ingrain YOUR stroke. IMO, the shoulder has no place in the pool swing...at least as a necessity. Others will argue the opposite, but rarely with anything other than their opinion (English will be stepping into your thread here momentarily...LOL). I gave you the science behind that philosophy, but told you ultimately it was up to you how you do, what you do. Timing is a personal issue. If using that little "hitch" offers you more comfort, without sacrificing accuracy and repeatability, then leave it alone. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
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Bill...As I told you, there is no "textbook" stroke...there's only YOUR stroke. You can make it whatever you want it to be. I showed you how to define, identity, and ingrain YOUR stroke. IMO, the shoulder has no place in the pool swing...at least as a necessity. Others will argue the opposite, but rarely with anything other than their opinion (English will be stepping into your thread here momentarily...LOL). I gave you the science behind that philosophy, but told you ultimately it was up to you how you do, what you do. Timing is a personal issue. If using that little "hitch" offers you more comfort, without sacrificing accuracy and repeatability, then leave it alone. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

What Scott said.

A lot of players have that same hitch you are talking about because it gets their cue on plane with the shot line after their pull back. It can straighten the elbow from being angled from one side or the other to straight up and down. Does it require extra effort and motion, yes. Will it prevent you from improving, no not necessarily. I know a guy who shoots as straight as some top pros and he has that hitch/shoulder transition.

Having confidence in your stroke is 90% of the game. If you don't, your f'd.
 
Thanks again for the replies, much appreciated.

I think I'm just going to let it be, and try to relax a bit. In search of removing all extra movement I feel like I lost my stroke a bit - stuck somewhere between what's natural and what I was trying to force with my backswing and landing on a mechanical feeling that I'm paying too much attention to...

The curse of an active mind and obsession with the game combined with the internet!
 
I've played snooker to the highest standard and I play half decent rotation now a days and I've never been happy with my fundamentals. No body has perfect fundamentals, so there are always improvements to be made. The day I stop trying to improve is the day I hang the cues up.
 
No speed really. Think about it like this, the goal with your fundamentals is to place your cue consistently on the line of aim every single time and go through the cue ball straight every single time. If you are unable to do that 100% of the time then there is still some work to do.

There is a lot of examples of top players changing their mechanics over the years. If they could use some tweaking surely the rest of us can too.
 
Hi -

I'm wondering at what speed or ghost level let's say did you stop worrying so much about fundamentals of your stroke, stance, etc. and just embrace the oddities of yourself?

I have a hitch in my stroke, where I water pump a bit almost like SVB but without all the skill. For about 6 months now I have been working hard to remove this, at the price of being loose and accurate. It feels like I'm fighting myself and that little hitch seems to stop my from rotating the ball join in my shoulder for some reason.

When I was playing at a 3 ball ghost level, this made sense to me - my fundamentals were key. I'm now beating the 5 ball regularly and I wonder if it's time to just be myself and try to improve my game without so much worry about the 'textbook' stroke..

tl;dr -> When did you feel like you were playing well enough to stop tinkering with the foundation of your game?[/QUOTE

I think I know what your asking and I'd say its a personal decision different for each person. Now I know I will take some heat for this : There is a camp that totally believes constant ongoing lessons \ training is the only way to go. I do not feel this way. I think lessons are good for beginners but I believe after you know what's going on and what you need to do the rest comes from time on the table. I believe each person needs to develope their own unique stroke, whatever works best for them. I don't think the cookie cutter approach with all the same strokes, fundamentals, systems etc is the way to go. One of the things that backs up my theory is just look at a lot of the best players in the world. Many of them have what some would call an odd stroke. Many do not have the cookie cutter fumdemantals taught by all the instructors. I'm not against instructors, I think they have much good information to offer - I'm just not sure that's the best way to go after reaching a certain level. Anyway I do agree with you, what's the point of sacrificing your game just to be able to say " you're doing it right "?

There are a number of top players that still go to instructors for a 'refresher'. Guess what they always work on at that level? Fundamentals. Little tweeks here and there that have become sloppy over time and they haven't noticed.

It seems you have bought into some of the nonsense on here about "cookie cutter approach". There is no such thing in reality. Now, there are certain generalities that are true for everyone. That goes without saying. But, each person is an individual, and the instructors job is to help develop a stroke that is repeatable for each person. Each person will have individual idiosyncrasies that make them unique.

Some instructors teach to try and stroke just from the elbow down. And, they have a good case for it. Some on here will take that and then twist it to meaning that if the elbow drops even an inch, they are doing it all wrong. Those types are just trying to nitpick and flap their gums and never do really understand the principles behind things.

Other instructors teach to just stroke from the shoulder down. And, they have a case for it. It's a preference, period. It's not that one is right, and one is wrong, like some try to make it out to be when all they are really after is trying to demean others, not help anyone.

But, you know what they both have in common? Both teach to not move any other part of the body. So, is that "cookie cutter"?

All instructors try an help a student by showing them what things are holding them back, and then giving them a way to correct the problem. That is all any instructor can do. It is up to the student to take that knowledge and put in a lot of time on the table (training) to make it their own and automatic.

Any time one has to learn to undo something and then learn to replace it with something else, even small tweeks, it takes time and conscious effort to make it happen . During that time, one usually sees their apparent overall skill actually go down a little. That is because they are now playing with their conscious mind, and their focus is on something different. In time, when it becomes habit to do it a new way, then the mind should shift back to playing with the subconscious mind. When that happens, that is where one starts seeing improvement.

The whole goal is to be able to repeatably hit the cb where you want to at the speed you want to on the shot line that you chose. That is what matters. And all that matters. It doesn't matter if one has a leg up on the table and shoots under their leg if they can accomplish the task at hand. But, when one isn't repeatable, that is when they need to start doing something different than they have been doing.
 
I've played snooker to the highest standard and I play half decent rotation now a days and I've never been happy with my fundamentals. No body has perfect fundamentals, so there are always improvements to be made. The day I stop trying to improve is the day I hang the cues up.

Good point, but I am not talking about feeling like I have nothing to improve, quite the opposite. I've seen great progress in my game in the last year, going from barely beating the 3ball ghost to consistently beating the 5 ball.

It's about making the most of my table practice time and trying to prevent a plateau that I feel I'm hitting.
 
Hi -

I'm wondering at what speed or ghost level let's say did you stop worrying so much about fundamentals of your stroke, stance, etc. and just embrace the oddities of yourself?

I have a hitch in my stroke, where I water pump a bit almost like SVB but without all the skill. For about 6 months now I have been working hard to remove this, at the price of being loose and accurate. It feels like I'm fighting myself and that little hitch seems to stop my from rotating the ball join in my shoulder for some reason.

When I was playing at a 3 ball ghost level, this made sense to me - my fundamentals were key. I'm now beating the 5 ball regularly and I wonder if it's time to just be myself and try to improve my game without so much worry about the 'textbook' stroke..

tl;dr -> When did you feel like you were playing well enough to stop tinkering with the foundation of your game?

It all depends on what your ultimate goals are. If your goals are to become the best that you can be, then you NEVER stop tinkering to an extent...

Once you've found and understand what it is you do when you do exactly what you want on the table, you stop tinkering with the foundation.

Then it's time to start working on disciplining yourself to do those things all the time. To stay down on the shot, to maintain the correct focal points.

The better you get at disciplining yourself to do the things and focus on the things that allow you to do exactly what you are trying to do, the more consistent you will become.

The trick is discovering what those things and focal points are for YOU and TRULY knowing that those things are what allow you to do what you want on the table.

Jaden
 
There are a number of top players that still go to instructors for a 'refresher'. Guess what they always work on at that level? Fundamentals. Little tweeks here and there that have become sloppy over time and they haven't noticed.

It seems you have bought into some of the nonsense on here about "cookie cutter approach". There is no such thing in reality. Now, there are certain generalities that are true for everyone. That goes without saying. But, each person is an individual, and the instructors job is to help develop a stroke that is repeatable for each person. Each person will have individual idiosyncrasies that make them unique.

Some instructors teach to try and stroke just from the elbow down. And, they have a good case for it. Some on here will take that and then twist it to meaning that if the elbow drops even an inch, they are doing it all wrong. Those types are just trying to nitpick and flap their gums and never do really understand the principles behind things.

Other instructors teach to just stroke from the shoulder down. And, they have a case for it. It's a preference, period. It's not that one is right, and one is wrong, like some try to make it out to be when all they are really after is trying to demean others, not help anyone.

But, you know what they both have in common? Both teach to not move any other part of the body. So, is that "cookie cutter"?

All instructors try an help a student by showing them what things are holding them back, and then giving them a way to correct the problem. That is all any instructor can do. It is up to the student to take that knowledge and put in a lot of time on the table (training) to make it their own and automatic.

Any time one has to learn to undo something and then learn to replace it with something else, even small tweeks, it takes time and conscious effort to make it happen . During that time, one usually sees their apparent overall skill actually go down a little. That is because they are now playing with their conscious mind, and their focus is on something different. In time, when it becomes habit to do it a new way, then the mind should shift back to playing with the subconscious mind. When that happens, that is where one starts seeing improvement.

The whole goal is to be able to repeatably hit the cb where you want to at the speed you want to on the shot line that you chose. That is what matters. And all that matters. It doesn't matter if one has a leg up on the table and shoots under their leg if they can accomplish the task at hand. But, when one isn't repeatable, that is when they need to start doing something different than they have been doing.

Excellent response, thanks for taking the time...

Let me ask everyone this - what is repeatable and consistent 'enough' to focus on other things. I doubt that 100% perfection is attainable or worth striving for even, so I guess the right path for me may be to invest more time in documenting or trying to be more aware of *what* is happening when I miss the pocket or position - and work on the things that are effecting it the most first...

May seem obvious, but I think I have been hyper focusing on cookie cutter approaches with the intention of achieving almost 100% accuracy before working on other parts of my game in a structured, focused way... I'm realizing this may be a waste of time and effort...


Lastly, maybe it's time to see an instructor again for a tune up - it seems like a good shortcut to finding the flaws that I can't see myself. I video myself all the time, but I don't find consistency in my inconsistency, lol..
 
Excellent response, thanks for taking the time...

Let me ask everyone this - what is repeatable and consistent 'enough' to focus on other things. I doubt that 100% perfection is attainable or worth striving for even, so I guess the right path for me may be to invest more time in documenting or trying to be more aware of *what* is happening when I miss the pocket or position - and work on the things that are effecting it the most first...

May seem obvious, but I think I have been hyper focusing on cookie cutter approaches with the intention of achieving almost 100% accuracy before working on other parts of my game in a structured, focused way... I'm realizing this may be a waste of time and effort...


Lastly, maybe it's time to see an instructor again for a tune up - it seems like a good shortcut to finding the flaws that I can't see myself. I video myself all the time, but I don't find consistency in my inconsistency, lol..

Ideally, one will work on an area, such as fundamentals, until they have mastered it. Then, they move on to shotmaking, position play, speed control, pattern play, ect. ect.

Very few have the time or inclination to do that. So, one has to get a little more realistic about ones approach. One needs actual training time. That means time with just themselves on the table. For fundamentals, one wants to make it automatic. A good PSR really helps with that. Approach each shot the same way and you will tend to do things the same way each time. Even just ten minutes of fundamental practice at the start of each training session will help tremendously. Then, move on to another area of training. At the end of your training session, spend some time putting it all together by actually playing, such as playing the ghost.

Don't judge, just observe. At the actual shot, your focus should be just on making the cue go straight down the line you chose. Then observe. Did I get my desired result? If yes, great. If no, why not? Don't expect perfection, it will never happen. Accept that.

Consistency comes from habit. Habit comes from repeatedly doing something. If you change up what you do each shot, you will never become consistent. You will reach plateaus. Everyone does. Don't look at a plateau as the end, it's not. In time, you will punch through that plateau. At first, improvement seems to come fast. The better you get, the slower improvement comes. At higher levels, it comes in little increments that can be hard to actually document.
 
Good point, but I am not talking about feeling like I have nothing to improve, quite the opposite. I've seen great progress in my game in the last year, going from barely beating the 3ball ghost to consistently beating the 5 ball.

It's about making the most of my table practice time and trying to prevent a plateau that I feel I'm hitting.
It depends on what heights you want your game to reach, then. If you want to reach the highest APA rank for your specified game, then your fundamentals don't have to be that good. In games such as 8 ball tactics play a big part and as such, a set amount of time should be spent on actually playing the game and working on being a good match play player. No one can devote all their time to fundamentals, the game just wouldn't be enjoyable. You have to find the right balance and give them the respect they deserve.

Your game will only plateau if your fundamentals allow it. Would your game ever plateau if you had Stricklands fundamentals? Yes... Eventually. But because he has excellent fundamentals his game plateaus at a much higher standard than most.
 
Hi -

I'm wondering at what speed or ghost level let's say did you stop worrying so much about fundamentals of your stroke, stance, etc. and just embrace the oddities of yourself?


When I was playing at a 3 ball ghost level, this made sense to me - my fundamentals were key. I'm now beating the 5 ball regularly

I would not look at ghost-play to make this decision. A person (like me) might beat the 5 ball ghost while still being a diamond (or more) away from my desired position on every shot....

In other words, I would look at your stroke and cue ball control...if both those things are working (consistently!) as good as you want them to, you are good to go.
If not, you have your answer.
 
Good point, but I am not talking about feeling like I have nothing to improve, quite the opposite. I've seen great progress in my game in the last year, going from barely beating the 3ball ghost to consistently beating the 5 ball.

It's about making the most of my table practice time and trying to prevent a plateau that I feel I'm hitting.

I'm not really sure what to tell you..I can tell you this, though: I have been where you are now, and the way forward for me was to work on fundamentals. Every "ghost level" there was some little thing I improved. You can beat the 5 ball ghost with quite shoddy fundamentals, you know. As you need to run more balls, the small errors will catch up to you, preventing you from going forward.

The way forward from me was doing drills that targeted my problem shots. It's not quite as fun as the ghost, but more effective, I think. I must have done something right, because right now I'm at the 10 ball ghost, and I started with the 3-ball one...

Fundamentals to me, includes a good psr as well as the stroke/stance itself. They all tie into each other, and cannot be skipped over. If you don't want to pay for instruction, at least get a friendly A-player to look your game over and tell you what he thinks. We can't really help you if we dont' know what you do. Just recently I got a tip from a local, great player that easily gave me 2 extra games against the 10 ball ghost. That's quite significant IMO. It was a small change, but a journey of a 1000 miles starts with one step. All the small improvements will get you a little bit closer to your goal. If your goal is to someday beat the 12 ball ghost, or even have a chance now and again against the 15 ball ghost, that journey can be a life-long one. Don't sell yourself short, by settling for poor fundamentals.
 
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Hi -

I'm wondering at what speed or ghost level let's say did you stop worrying so much about fundamentals of your stroke, stance, etc. and just embrace the oddities of yourself?

I have a hitch in my stroke, where I water pump a bit almost like SVB but without all the skill. For about 6 months now I have been working hard to remove this, at the price of being loose and accurate. It feels like I'm fighting myself and that little hitch seems to stop my from rotating the ball join in my shoulder for some reason.

When I was playing at a 3 ball ghost level, this made sense to me - my fundamentals were key. I'm now beating the 5 ball regularly and I wonder if it's time to just be myself and try to improve my game without so much worry about the 'textbook' stroke..

tl;dr -> When did you feel like you were playing well enough to stop tinkering with the foundation of your game?

It's funny, I ran into the same kind of issue a while back. I had this nice smooth bicycle stroke that I loved. Lotsa touch, could really let loose. I thought it was going to be the stroke I had going forward. But then I realized that a nice stroke when you're relaxed, isn't the same under pressure. So my nice flourishy stroke was worthless as soon as I started to feel pressure.

I think competing and really wanting it at those moments when nothing's clicking and you're really struggling to make something happen, I think that's a good way to take note of what you parts of your mechanics you can really rely on.
 
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