I Used to Use a System But Now....

Can't believe I'm coming to Duckers defense, but to be fair. Even in that post from 2014, he made it clear he didn't like handicap leagues. And I don't see where he bragged about beating the guy.

In his 2014 post he said he wasn't a "FAN" of handicap leagues. That's a far cry from now saying he despises them.

Here's what he said yesterday: "I don't do handicap leagues at all, nor do I give spots or take spots.

TOTAL FRIGGIN' LIE. His post proves otherwise. He was in a handicap league by choice whether he was a fan of them or not.

I only play heads up. So you really don't know shit huh about me.

TOTAL FRIGGIN' LIE. His post proves otherwise. In that particular match he received a 60 ball spot to 100.

I despise handicap leagues cause it gives a false sense of playing ability to those that do handicap leagues.

It doesn't give a false sense of playing ability to those who are handing out a huge spot to a far lesser player. It fortifies their skill level. Apparently the TD thought duckie deserved a 60 ball spot from his previous playing results vs. the other guy.

You don't think it was bragging? I guess we're interpreting it differently especially when he started out saying how nervous he was and then used his ZEN mindset to take his game to a new level to win. Him 40 and the other guy 53. I guess the other guy had the worst night of his life playing because he wasn't too happy.

I don't know about you, but if I was in a handicap league getting a 60 ball spot I'd hide the experience from the world for the rest of my life, not crow about how I won with it from bearing down and Zen. That would be embarrassing. Having said it, I play Allen Hopkins in 14.1 and 1pocket and he could give me a 100 ball spot and still win. But Hopkins was one of the best in the world, not some handicap league player.

I can't believe you're sticking up for duckie either.
 
In his 2014 post he said he wasn't a "FAN" of handicap leagues. That's a far cry from now saying he despises them.

Here's what he said yesterday: "I don't do handicap leagues at all, nor do I give spots or take spots.

TOTAL FRIGGIN' LIE. His post proves otherwise. He was in a handicap league by choice whether he was a fan of them or not.

I only play heads up. So you really don't know shit huh about me.

TOTAL FRIGGIN' LIE. His post proves otherwise. In that particular match he received a 60 ball spot to 100.

I despise handicap leagues cause it gives a false sense of playing ability to those that do handicap leagues.

It doesn't give a false sense of playing ability to those who are handing out a huge spot to a far lesser player. It fortifies their skill level. Apparently the TD thought duckie deserved a 60 ball spot from his previous playing results vs. the other guy.

You don't think it was bragging? I guess we're interpreting it differently especially when he started out saying how nervous he was and then used his ZEN mindset to take his game to a new level to win. Him 40 and the other guy 53. I guess the other guy had the worst night of his life playing because he wasn't too happy.

I don't know about you, but if I was in a handicap league getting a 60 ball spot I'd hide the experience from the world for the rest of my life, not crow about how I won with it from bearing down and Zen. That would be embarrassing. Having said it, I play Allen Hopkins in 14.1 and 1pocket and he could give me a 100 ball spot and still win. But Hopkins was one of the best in the world, not some handicap league player.

I can't believe you're sticking up for duckie either.

I'm sure I could refute a few of your points, and we could have a nice little back and forth, but then Duckles might think I'm his new BFF.
 
I'm sure I could refute a few of your points, and we could have a nice little back and forth, but then Duckles might think I'm his new BFF.


LMAO. I don't know, you wanting to have a beer with Lou Figueroa, now standing up for Duckie...what's next? A petition to bring ENGLISH and PJ back because they're really great people but slightly misunderstood? :D ;)
 
You still haven't answered my original questions about FEEL. Try again with something beside TRIAL AND ERROR.

If no system is used in lieu of feel, wouldn't that be just getting up there and shooting any old way? What is it that all supposed "FEEL" players feel or see?

How can feel be transferred from one player to the next in words for teaching purposes?

It everybody shoots by feel in the end, why is the aiming feel of top pro players so far superior to beginners, league players, or bangers? Is it because they hit 5 million balls and not just a million? Is every non pro player supposed to quit their jobs and forgo all the years of education to spend time at a pool room hitting 5 million balls in the quest for an ever elusive feel that can't be defined or described?

Did you quit your job or do you continue to work? When did you reach pro status from feel alone?

What the hell is FEEL when it comes to a focused visual alignment process?


I'm trying not to spend a lot of time on this because you seem to refuse to have a normal conversation, and to at least make an attempt at understanding what I am saying. Let me try one more time:

Everybody aims by feel. What is feel? It is a feedback mechanism that your brain uses to learn. For instance, when you drive a car down the road you may observe that the car is drifting left toward the double yellow line. Your brain tells your hands to turn the wheel to the right a little. When the car veers too far to the right side of the road, your brain tells your hands to turn the wheel back a tad to keep the car going straight down the road. After you have been driving long enough, this process is done subconsciously. How many times have you driven home only to realize you don't remember half of the trip?

Likewise, the brain learns how to pocket balls by hitting balls and observing the outcome. Overcut, undercut, perfect shot. That data goes into the most powerful computer in the world and eventually becomes subconscious knowledge. When confronted with new playing conditions, the brain takes a few minutes to get used to the new feedback it is receiving (fast cloth, sticky balls, etc.). Rempe always said the person who adjusts to the table conditions quickest will win.

So is there anything controversial about what I just said? Is there anything even debatable about it? This is what I am calling feel. The rest of the shooting process comes down to delivering the cue straight, which is the harder part of the equation.

Are we in agreement so far?
 
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I'm trying not to spend a lot of time on this because you seem to refuse to have a normal conversation, and to at least make an attempt at understanding what I am saying. Let me try one more time:

Not at all. You haven't said anything of value that makes sense up to this point.

Everybody aims by feel.

First disagreement which started this entire thing off. My views are everybody aims with their eyes that align one ball to another ball and in most types of aiming to a pocket. (or rail for safeties, banks, etc.) Then the feet, body, and bridge are aligned.

What is feel? It is a feedback mechanism that your brain uses to learn. For instance, when you drive a car down the road you may observe that the car is drifting left toward the double yellow line. Your brain tells your hands to turn the wheel to the right a little. When the car veers too far to the right side of the road, your brain tells your hands to turn the wheel back a tad to keep the car going straight down the road. After you have been driving long enough, this process is done subconsciously. How many times have you driven home only to realize you don't remember half of the trip?

The analogy that makes more sense to me is shooting a pistol or rifle to a bullseye. It's all visual with the eyes. See the back sight of the gun (CB and cue tip) aligned to the front sight (specific part of the OB) aligned to the dead center of the bullseye. (pocket)

Likewise, the brain learns how to pocket balls by hitting balls and observing the outcome.

Same with the gun. But it's feedback for better eye, body, and gun alignment. Naturally recoil plays a major role here along with nerves to hold it steady and not flinch before pulling the trigger. If you're saying FEEL is what is used in hitting balls, I think it's an overuse and misuse of the word. It's TRIAL and ERROR with a lot of TRIAL and a lot of ERROR until homing in on something more consistent than the things causing error. Here's where teaching aiming cuts down on the trial, error and learning process.

Overcut, undercut, perfect shot. That data goes into the most powerful computer in the world and eventually becomes subconscious knowledge.

True, but if any part of the alignment in pool is inadvertently altered or consciously altered the undercutting, overcutting, and perfect shots have to be reprogrammed. That's why a strong visual system taught from the beginning is important. When an alteration or misalignment occurs, then YES, the eyes and brain go off telling you subconsciously something is haywire and that is when the INTUITION, 6th SENSE, GUT REACTION, BETTER JUDGEMENT (sometimes worse judgment) aka FEEL adjustments take place. It's to RIGHT A PERCEIVED WRONG. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

When confronted with new playing conditions, the brain takes a few minutes to get used to the new feedback it is receiving (fast cloth, sticky balls, etc.). Rempe always said the person who adjusts to the table conditions quickest will win.

Nobody would disagree with this. Observation, or eyes, give you the feedback. There may need to be a slight alteration in aiming. FEEL comes into play with how much harder or softer you need to strike the balls to get desired results. That's in the hands.

So is there anything controversial about what I just said? Is there anything even debatable about it? This is what I am calling feel. The rest of the shooting process comes down to delivering the cue straight, which is the harder part of the equation.

Are we in agreement so far?

That was a good post. Are we in agreement? I don't know, some of it. Are you in agreement with my responses?

You say aiming can't be taught. Of course it can. Here's a book written by Todd Leveck that is probably the most comprehensive book with the majority of aiming systems in existence. He's a certified BCA Instructor. If you read the 2nd link, even your best buddy Lou Figueroa has or had a copy, although he never said anything about the book other than it was simplistic and was b!tching about being double charged and ripped off for express delivery and got Pony Express instead. Good old Lou is never too liberal with praise about anything except himself and his game.

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE BELOW AND ARE WE ON THE SAME PAGE ABOUT BEING ABLE TO TEACH AIMING SYSTEMS TO PLAYERS AT ALL LEVELS?

http://www.ozonebilliards.com/aiming-on-the-cutting-edge-billiard-book-ace.html

This book is HUGE! Written by Todd “The Impaler” Leveck, a Certified Instructor with the Billiard Congress of America and probably the most comprehensive book on aiming for pocket billiards ever written. With over 500 pages and more than 300 illustrations, demonstrations, experiments and practice drills, the subtitle of this book is How to Develop a Precision Aiming System for Pocket Billiards. Learn all about the geometry of pool, pool physics, english and how to aim using english, your vision for winning, mental and physical alignment techniques, equipment and problems with equipment and how to reach the next level and beyond. Tons of information on all the aiming systems out there.

http://www.sporttaco.com/rec.sport....consistency_problems_long_but_valid_3837.html








 
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I'm trying not to spend a lot of time on this because you seem to refuse to have a normal conversation, and to at least make an attempt at understanding what I am saying. Let me try one more time:

Everybody aims by feel. What is feel? It is a feedback mechanism that your brain uses to learn. For instance, when you drive a car down the road you may observe that the car is drifting left toward the double yellow line. Your brain tells your hands to turn the wheel to the right a little. When the car veers too far to the right side of the road, your brain tells your hands to turn the wheel back a tad to keep the car going straight down the road. After you have been driving long enough, this process is done subconsciously. How many times have you driven home only to realize you don't remember half of the trip?

Likewise, the brain learns how to pocket balls by hitting balls and observing the outcome. Overcut, undercut, perfect shot. That data goes into the most powerful computer in the world and eventually becomes subconscious knowledge. When confronted with new playing conditions, the brain takes a few minutes to get used to the new feedback it is receiving (fast cloth, sticky balls, etc.). Rempe always said the person who adjusts to the table conditions quickest will win.

So is there anything controversial about what I just said? Is there anything even debatable about it? This is what I am calling feel. The rest of the shooting process comes down to delivering the cue straight, which is the harder part of the equation.

Are we in agreement so far?

I think the problem is, you made an irrefutable claim. We don't know what's going on in your head, just like you don't know what's going on in our heads. Any evidence we provide is individual and subjective, and therefore isn't factual.

I think for once I will try and answer stuff without being factual, I hope its at least more satisfying than just insulting you.

I know with a lot of other players, they've been playing for years, so even if they pocket balls using CTE, it could be chalked up to years of experience and feel.

So I went straight into CTE as soon as I started playing pool. And I think I'm as closest to as inexperience about the game as you could get before picking up an aiming system.

So I don't have the experience to feel which shot to make, I never really learned ghost ball, I just know cte. And I feel like some of the shots I make are really way above my pay grade. It's extremely thin cuts into the side that convince me that I wouldn't be able to without CTE. I think no matter how much people in my league practice, I think they won't ever be able to pocket the ball as cleanly and with as much authority as I could, on average.

I can tell you that CTE users aren't trying to make little adjustments here and there. Really all they are trying to do is execute the steps as cleanly as possible. Misses usually come about, when we try to make adjustments.

Adjusting down on the shot is also usually a recipe for disaster. If you follow the steps correctly, and it looks wrong, it usually means your cue is on the shotline, but your eyes aren't in correct alignments, but if you adjust, you're just going to miss.
 
I also believe that cte pool is ultimately feel based. But I think it's a different sort of feel.

So many factors change in different days, including your eyes, body etc.

Getting your body to follow what your eyes say is feel.

When I get into the pool room, there's definitely an adjustment phase, where I need to refocus on looking at the balls, as well as remembering the right "rate" of pivot.

When your eyes lead, and the body follows, you're visual sweeps will vary in distance. I think this is how being able to achieve different angles with the same visuals is possible.

The visual sweep amount is feel based. But not in the way you're implying, which I think is what riles people up.

I think when you say feel, it is implying that we guess the amount of adjustment that is needed. When I say feel, it means, did I execute the system properly and is the amount I pivoted as a result of the system, the right amount?
 
One of the other things I really enjoy is riding a motorcycle.........sometimes a little too fast for the street to be safe.

There are a few race tracks close to me that rents the track out so people can drive their car or, in my case, a motorcycle on the track as fast as you want to go.

So, in order to satisfied my need for speed, I got a 04 Yamaha R1 that is used only on the track, never on the street.

I do one or two track days depending on the schedule a month. So, there is about 3-4 weeks I haven't ridden the R1.

But........because I did raced for some years and street ride on another bike,when I do get on the R1 , it feels like I was just on it the day before and not have been 3-4 weeks from last time.

Ever have a friend, lose contact for many years, then run into them and it feels just like yesterday that you saw them?

Kinda like that.

That's how my pool playing has become because I have done so much of it. Can take a break, start playing again and it's like I never took a break.
 
LMAO. I don't know, you wanting to have a beer with Lou Figueroa, now standing up for Duckie...what's next? A petition to bring ENGLISH and PJ back because they're really great people but slightly misunderstood? :D ;)

Ha, PJ is fine by me. We might not agree on everything, but that doesn't make him a bad person or a troll.

ENGLISH, on the other hand...
 
I can tell you that CTE users aren't trying to make little adjustments here and there. Really all they are trying to do is execute the steps as cleanly as possible. Misses usually come about, when we try to make adjustments.

In my opinion, the evidence I've seen tells me that CTE is not capable of putting the eyes in the correct spot to make every shot on the table. If I am wrong, then I have yet to find anyone who can explain where I'm wrong. I'd rather not go down this road again. Last time it lead to statements from Stan like, "the balls present themselves on the table" and then quickly things degrade into how I don't know anything about CTE. Well if it works it should be clearly explainable, which it isn't.

CTE surely puts you close to the pocket (but then again so does every other method), but it cannot account for the ball being pocketed at every angle. The logical conclusion is that your brain is subconsciously helping you pocket the ball.
 
Ha, PJ is fine by me. We might not agree on everything, but that doesn't make him a bad person or a troll.

Fortunately I never had the early years of PJ like Hal did and some others that I now know and respect from the internet. PJ is a know-it-all egomaniac/megalomaniac in everything regarding pool, religion, and politics. A truly despicable SOB who got BANNED for those very reasons. An absolute scumbag!

And if I get banned for saying it is because I didn't know the rules say you can be banned for telling the truth about a past member who got banned for those exact reasons by the moderators.


ENGLISH, on the other hand...

You got one right about ENGLISH but I'm really starting to worry about your judgment.
 
In my opinion, the evidence I've seen tells me that CTE is not capable of putting the eyes in the correct spot to make every shot on the table. If I am wrong, then I have yet to find anyone who can explain where I'm wrong. I'd rather not go down this road again. Last time it lead to statements from Stan like, "the balls present themselves on the table" and then quickly things degrade into how I don't know anything about CTE. Well if it works it should be clearly explainable, which it isn't.

CTE surely puts you close to the pocket (but then again so does every other method), but it cannot account for the ball being pocketed at every angle. The logical conclusion is that your brain is subconsciously helping you pocket the ball.

I've said before that I think there is some subconscious involvement when using CTE.

I don't think that's a bad thing.

Here's the deal though, even if CTE doesn't get the user's eyes directly on the shotline, let's at least agree it gets them pretty close. So even if it only gets them 1% closer than something like ghostball, that's a pretty big difference.

But for most CTE users, I think that number would be much higher. After all, it's not that hard to find the shot line.
 
I've said before that I think there is some subconscious involvement when using CTE.

I don't think that's a bad thing.

Here's the deal though, even if CTE doesn't get the user's eyes directly on the shotline, let's at least agree it gets them pretty close. So even if it only gets them 1% closer than something like ghostball, that's a pretty big difference.

But for most CTE users, I think that number would be much higher. After all, it's not that hard to find the shot line.

There are no adjustments. I could show you where you are off the mark in less than 5 minutes.

Stan Shuffett
 
That was a good post. Are we in agreement? I don't know, some of it. Are you in agreement with my responses?

Spider - your habit of posting in blue nested inside my comments makes it cumbersome to reply to you. You should really learn how to multi-quote. I mentioned that to you like a year ago.

Frankly, you are misreading so much of what I write that it can be hard to figure out what we agree on and what we're actually arguing about.


You say aiming can't be taught. Of course it can. Here's a book written by Todd Leveck that is probably the most comprehensive book with the majority of aiming systems in existence. He's a certified BCA Instructor.

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE BELOW AND ARE WE ON THE SAME PAGE ABOUT BEING ABLE TO TEACH AIMING SYSTEMS TO PLAYERS AT ALL LEVELS?

Here's another case where you aren't thinking about what I'm writing. I said that nobody can teach a new player how to find the correct aim point. You can certainly get them close. Take ghost ball. "Just aim at the ghost ball and then a little more off to the side to take throw into account." Take CTE. "Line up edge to A, keep eyes fixed as you get down, sweep, etc etc." Both methods get you in the correct general direction you need to be. However, it is my opinion that NO SYSTEM is capable of doing all the work for you. Your brain needs the input of shot after shot in order to learn what a successful shot looks like.

The bigger problem is stroke mechanics, and I maintain that very few people have perfect mechanics. The link you provide to the guy who shot so much better overnight because of his alignment is a perfect example IN SUPPORT of what I am saying all along. The guy is saying that he gave up on pool because his stroke, which includes his set up and cue alignment, was all over the place. When he improved his alignment, he was amazed. The guy gets down on a shot and closes his eyes. He says he makes like 10 shots perfectly. Isn't it obvious that the guy knew perfectly well how to aim all this time, and it was his alignment and NOT his aim that was the problem? He has known how to aim all along. He just wasn't able to deliver the cue properly.

In my opinion, after playing this damn game since I was a kid, I believe that aiming is relatively simple and can be taught perfectly well through the ghost ball method. 90% of the problem is the stroke mechanics, including everything needed to deliver the cue straight. That includes head alignment, body placement, what the elbow is doing and on and on.

If somebody can use an aiming system to help themselves stroke the cue better, than great! Personally, I'd say go buy Mark Wilson's book and that book has everything you need to know to become a great player. Note: there's very little in the book about actually aiming. It's all about the stroke.
 
There are no adjustments. I could show you where you are off the mark in less than 5 minutes.

Stan Shuffett

HI Stan,

I've always said if time and money allowed I'd pay you a visit. Even if I didn't go back to using CTE, I know there's plenty of other information I could break your brain on.

I'm glad you posted, however, because I actually have a question. Even though I don't use CTE anymore, I will sometimes mess around with it during practice. So I know after acquiring your visuals, you sweep into CCB while keeping your focus on the cue ball.

What I've found for me is that I actually have better success when I'm looking at the OB while performing the sweep. Take the infamous 5 shots that we all love to talk about. The last shot, no matter how much I tried, I could never make it when looking at CCB during the sweep. As soon as I start focusing on the OB instead, it hits the back of the pocket every single time.

Why?


***EVERYONE, PLEASE LET STAN ANSWER BEFORE CHIMING IN. THANKS IN ADVANCE***
 
HI Stan,

I've always said if time and money allowed I'd pay you a visit. Even if I didn't go back to using CTE, I know there's plenty of other information I could break your brain on.

I'm glad you posted, however, because I actually have a question. Even though I don't use CTE anymore, I will sometimes mess around with it during practice. So I know after acquiring your visuals, you sweep into CCB while keeping your focus on the cue ball.

What I've found for me is that I actually have better success when I'm looking at the OB while performing the sweep. Take the infamous 5 shots that we all love to talk about. The last shot, no matter how much I tried, I could never make it when looking at CCB during the sweep. As soon as I start focusing on the OB instead, it hits the back of the pocket every single time.

Why?


***EVERYONE, PLEASE LET STAN ANSWER BEFORE CHIMING IN. THANKS IN ADVANCE***

Every single time! That'd be a great video. Pros can not do that, not even close.

I am doing a complete chapter on the five shots and I will tell it like it is.....fair and balanced.

First of all, the sweep as you are doing it is your very weakest CTE option. You further weaken the process by focusing on the OB.

I promise you that at this point you have no chance of breaking my brain with CTE questions.

Stan Shuffett
 
Every single time! That'd be a great video. Pros can not do that, not even close.

I am doing a complete chapter on the five shots and I will tell it like it is.....fair and balanced.

First of all, the sweep as you are doing it is your very weakest CTE option. You further weaken the process by focusing on the OB.

I promise you that at this point you have no chance of breaking my brain with CTE questions.

Stan Shuffett

I think you know I wasn't being literal when I said, "every time"

Let me know if this statement is better... I make more shots when focusing on the OB during the sweep than when I focus on the CB.

Again, why?

I assume I must be doing something wrong when I perform the sweep while looking at the CB. What exactly?
 
I think you know I wasn't being literal when I said, "every time"

Let me know if this statement is better... I make more shots when focusing on the OB during the sweep than when I focus on the CB.

Again, why?

I assume I must be doing something wrong when I perform the sweep while looking at the CB. What exactly?

What exactly that you are not doing will be in Chapter 25.

Stan Shuffett
 
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