I Used to Use a System But Now....

[mista335]

Aiming systems are for suckers.

Lou Figueroa

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

 

[BeiberLvr]

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

Yep. I don't have a personal problem with Lou I think he's a bit of a dick at times, but so am I, so I'm sure we could enjoy a drink together.

However, that post is 100% trolling.

There are numerous ways he could've worded it differently, but instead chose to go with "Aiming systems are for suckers". Knowing full well that the majority of people that visit this 'side of town' are aiming system users.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I recommend the best of both worlds. You can be systematic, refined, and also use the subconscious powerfully for adjustments. The transition is stepping into the stance. Left-brained stuff from port arms position. Relax and shoot when down in the trenches...

 

[Dan White]

Aiming systems are for suckers.

If some have success, generally speaking, they are already accomplished players.

There are just too many variables from shot to shot, to say nothing of player to player.

Lou Figueroa

I have thought for awhile now that the benefit of an aiming system is that it forces the shooter to be more methodical in their shotmaking. Forget the 1,2,3 of any system. Everybody shoots by feel in the end but having that structured way of approaching each shot may make the difference for a lot of people who would otherwise just get up there and shoot any old way... that's my theory this week, anyway.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Aiming systems are for suckers.
A valid viewpoint, but an unpopular one.
If some have success, generally speaking, they are already accomplished players.
It is a funny coincidence that almost all the aiming system spokespersons were allready accomplished players before their "conversion", isn't it?
There are just too many variables from shot to shot, to say nothing of player to player.
A lot of variables in this game, that is for sure.
Lou Figueroa

I figured this post would get a lot of flack, but it actually got less than I would have anticipated. I've allready suggested many times that the problem with pool isn't aiming (as in the mental process of determining the point you need to strike and then spotting it) at all, it's "pointing" the cue and body in the right direction and then moving the cue straight in the intended direction. The general categories for these actions are alignment and stroking respectively and must necessarily be a little bit different for players of different builds and eye dominances etc...

Some aiming systems score points by acknowledging this fact, and creating psrs that actually lead you to a somewhat decent alignment (for the average person). Sadly these systems are complicating the process and defeating any natural tendencies a player might allready have in place for getting "there". Like others have allready pointed out, the hugely mechanical approach may actually take you out of the zone, and lead you to distrusting your subconscious.

Speaking primarily as a snooker player, there is just no way that I can get consistently and perfectly aligned on all long pots, swiping the cue into position from the side (for reasons which I will explain below). Believe me, I've tried. Even if the foot is on the correct spot, placing the arms and moving them individually into position introduces another source of error for me. It greatly simplifies the alignment process to step in from behind the shot, and then drop down onto the shotline. But hey, if people can do all that pivoting and get super accurate on these shots, that's great. On shorter shots, and easy tables, this may not be that big of a problem, but I need all the help I can get on those "long green" shots.

My own experiments with pivot systems showed me that even if the system got my cue pointed in the right direction, it was very difficult to keep it pointing there, because I was not properly "locked in". I do most of my locking in before I get down on the shot, holding the cue out in front of my body at "port arms" as Jimmy Reid would put it. Holding the cue out in front of me like that, I determine the geometry of the cue and bridgehand (distances and angles of my hands/shoulder/forerams). This feels perfectly natural and doesn't take any time or thought at all, it's instant.

When these are all perfect (for my body) there is a sensation of "locking in", which greatly adds to the precision of the shot. It feels a bit like shooting a rifle with a sling. While there is a a sideways movement involved in getting down on the line, the final part consists of dropping straight down. It's quite tricky to combine this with anything other than a 90/90 style "hip pivot", and even that takes a bit of practice (at least for me it did). Could you perform this "locking in" while down over the ball? Maybe, but this tends to disturb the alignment achieved by the pivoting, for me.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[mohrt]

Speaking primarily as a snooker player, there is just no way that I can get consistently and perfectly aligned on all long pots, swiping the cue into position from the side (for reasons which I will explain below). Believe me, I've tried. Even if the foot is on the correct spot, placing the arms and moving them individually into position introduces another source of error for me. It greatly simplifies the alignment process to step in from behind the shot, and then drop down onto the shotline. But hey, if people can do all that pivoting and get super accurate on these shots, that's great. On shorter shots, and easy tables, this may not be that big of a problem, but I need all the help I can get on those "long green" shots.

This description seems to me that you are trying to use a pivoting system in a capacity that it was not meant for. That is, the sweep (in CTE pro one at least) is not some pin-point accurate movement to the shot line. If you are trying to do a perfect sweep every time in hopes of landing on the shot, you are going to have a very hard time being consistent. Stan says in his instruction "the eyes lead, the body follows". It is a visual system. CTE (and 90/90 for that matter) are visual systems. It's all about getting the eyes in the correct position first, then bringing your feet, body, cue, etc. into that alignment. Exactly how you get there is secondary to getting the eyes in the right place. Just do what is natural, comfortable. Your feet, your body, your cue, just follow the eyes in, and ultimately landing where the eyes are looking. Sweeping the cue in from the side is a natural movement. You *can* move the cue straight in if you wish, but that is a little more awkward.

Say we are using CTE Pro One. We put our eyes on a 30 degree perception. Now we look at the face of the cueball and move our eyes straight in. As we get closer, we move our feet, body, cue, into the alignment our eyes are leading us to. We are NOT putting our foot in the "correct" spot first, we are letting our feet go where the eyes lead. We are NOT using our sweep/pivot to take us to the shot line, our eyes have already done that, we just bring our cue in and place it where our eyes are leading. Note this is sharp contrast to traditional point-and-shoot aiming!

Maybe that helps? I don't know. What I do know is I'm shooting straighter and more consistent than I ever did using traditional aiming/PSR methods. I'm not saying I couldn't get there using them with enough effort, I could. CTE has made my PSR more efficient and precise. My eyes now do much of the work.

The way CTE taught/described early on, in a very mechanical manner, may lead one to think that it is a very mechanical system. And it does work at that capacity quite nicely. But really, the eyes are what matters. The learning routines are the training wheels, they get you to where you can see where the eyes need to be. Then you stop thinking about all the mechanical stuff and start following your eyes.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Everybody shoots by feel in the end but having that structured way of approaching each shot may make the difference for a lot of people who would otherwise just get up there and shoot any old way... that's my theory this week, anyway.

How do you know what "everybody" does because your statement means 100%. Most all players claim to use a system and there are many of them and all systems have a common factor which is FOCUSED VISUAL ALIGNMENT between the CB and OB. Where is the focus with feel? Is it a quick glimpse and boom, everything is automatic from that point on?

If no system is used in lieu of feel, wouldn't that be just getting up there and shooting any old way? What is it that all supposed "FEEL" players feel or see?

How can feel be transferred from one player to the next in words for teaching purposes?

It everybody shoots by feel in the end, why is the aiming feel of top pro players so far superior to beginners, league players, or bangers? Is it because they hit 5 million balls and not just a million? Is every non pro player supposed to quit their jobs and forgo all the years of education to spend time at a pool room hitting 5 million balls in the quest for an ever elusive feel that can't be defined or described?

Did you quit your job or do you continue to work? When did you reach pro status from feel alone?

What the hell is FEEL when it comes to a focused visual alignment process?

 

[nine_ball6970]

It everybody shoots by feel in the end, why is the aiming feel of top pro players so far superior to beginners, league players, or bangers? Is it because they hit 5 million balls and not just a million? Is every non pro player supposed to quit their jobs and forgo all the years of education to spend time at a pool room hitting 5 million balls in the quest for an ever elusive feel that can't be defined or described?

Did you quit your job or do you continue to work? When did you reach pro status from feel alone?

What the hell is FEEL when it comes to a focused visual alignment process?

Pros are pros because of their consistent set up and superior strokes. Most misses are caused by not hitting the cue ball where you intend instead of faulty aiming. People blame aiming because they don't realize how inconsistent their strokes are and how miniscule differences in tip placement affect the path of the cue ball.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Pros are pros because of their consistent set up and superior strokes. Most misses are caused by not hitting the cue ball where you intend instead of faulty aiming. People blame aiming because they don't realize how inconsistent their strokes are and how miniscule differences in tip placement affect the path of the cue ball.

This isn't a thread about why pros are pros or about stroking. Of course the stroke is important but this is the Aiming Forum, not the Stroking Forum. Are you a pro and what got you there?

 

[duckie]

How do you know what "everybody" does because your statement means 100%. Most all players claim to use a system and there are many of them and all systems have a common factor which is FOCUSED VISUAL ALIGNMENT between the CB and OB. Where is the focus with feel? Is it a quick glimpse and boom, everything is automatic from that point on?

If no system is used in lieu of feel, wouldn't that be just getting up there and shooting any old way? What is it that all supposed "FEEL" players feel or see?

How can feel be transferred from one player to the next in words for teaching purposes?

It everybody shoots by feel in the end, why is the aiming feel of top pro players so far superior to beginners, league players, or bangers? Is it because they hit 5 million balls and not just a million? Is every non pro player supposed to quit their jobs and forgo all the years of education to spend time at a pool room hitting 5 million balls in the quest for an ever elusive feel that can't be defined or described?

Did you quit your job or do you continue to work? When did you reach pro status from feel alone?

What the hell is FEEL when it comes to a focused visual alignment process?

If you have to ask, you'll never know.....

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If you have to ask, you'll never know.....

LMAO! From the man who knows all, sees all, and is all in the world of pool. (at least in handicap leagues where he gets the handicap)

 

[nine_ball6970]

This isn't a thread about why pros are pros or about stroking. Of course the stroke is important but this is the Aiming Forum, not the Stroking Forum. Are you a pro and what got you there?

I quoted a part where you mentioned pros and feel.

Feel is basically the ability to visualize the shot. How the cue ball rolls until contact and how the object ball rolls after contact.

That's why the aiming section is such a joke. Everyone thinks that their aim is the reason why they miss balls so y'all keep trying different systems hoping that one will make you better instead of focusing on the actual reason you missed the ball.

I am not a pro. Never claimed to be. I am a decent amateur who visits the aiming forum because it is funny to read the never ending bickering between like 10 people about the same things. I find it surprising how many insults you get away with here.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Feel is basically the ability to visualize the shot. How the cue ball rolls until contact and how the object ball rolls after contact.

How it rolls vs. where it needs to roll to make contact is different.

That's why the aiming section is such a joke.

Then you should at least consider not posting since you have nothing to say that's beneficial, instructive, or intelligent on the subject itself.

Everyone thinks that their aim is the reason why they miss balls so y'all keep trying different systems hoping that one will make you better instead of focusing on the actual reason you missed the ball.

When and where was it ever stated the only reason for missing was because of aiming?

I am not a pro.

Based on your posts, I assumed you weren't.

Never claimed to be.

That's good.

I am a decent amateur

Have you done Dr. Dave's video challenge yet so we can see how decent you are? Before you ask, no I haven't done his challenge and won't for reasons that he knows. However, I have done a number of videos and posted them here.

who visits the aiming forum because it is funny to read the never ending bickering between like 10 people about the same things.

Good to see you getting your rocks off. Ever consider being a lurker instead of an instigator troll? You can still laugh your a$$ off.

I find it surprising how many insults you get away with here.

I find it surprising that those with nothing to say or a differing viewpoint don't start their own thread about stroking in the main section and let it run it's course. Wouldn't that be more fun and productive?

 

[BasementDweller]

While I agree that some people put too much emphasis on aiming, I also think it's ridiculous to entirely dismiss what aiming systems bring to the table. This game of ours is so visually stimulating -- maybe more so than any other sport. It involves so little body movement during the stroke that it only makes since that the visual aspect of the game would be very interesting to many of us. Actually from the beginning, what ropes many of us in IS the visual aspect. For many, enjoying the physical part of the game comes later on. If you think about it -- that really makes pool quite unique.

So, what's more curious visually than aiming?

On a totally different subject:
I do find it really interesting how when I'm playing a lot and my stroke feels nice and smooth my aim also goes on autopilot. I can't remember a time when I was cueing the ball well where I was having a hard time seeing the shot. The flip side is -- after a break for even a few days everything can be off. My cue will feel foreign in my hands and I will have to mechanically aim at the balls until everything comes back together at the same time. I think this is a big part of why there's a disconnect between pros and amateurs when it comes to aiming. Pool demands more time than us amateurs can really give it, while pros play so much that most aspects of their games is on autopilot.

 

[Dan White]

The flip side is -- after a break for even a few days everything can be off. My cue will feel foreign in my hands and I will have to mechanically aim at the balls until everything comes back together at the same time. I think this is a big part of why there's a disconnect between pros and amateurs when it comes to aiming. Pool demands more time than us amateurs can really give it, while pros play so much that most aspects of their games is on autopilot.

To me, this means that your mechanics aren't quite right, and/or that the placement of your eyes is inconsistent. You may be making compensating errors that result in a straight cue delivery. However, if you don't have everything timed just right, you will be off. If you have good, solid mechanics like the pro's have, then taking time off shouldn't matter.

 

[duckie]

Those that are making excuse about being able to practice will never be any good.

You will be hot and cold meaning you will never achieve any level of consistency.

I can put my cue down for a month, then pick it up and its like I never put it down for a month.

The same thing occurs with my track riding. I only do it once a month, but I;ve done is so much over a long period of time, its like I never been away from the track.

But then again for about three years straight, I put in over 2000 hours a year.

Those three years laid a solid foundation for my consistency I have today.

I chose to put in those hours and it appears few are willing to commit to doing whatever to achieve a high level of consistency in pool.

Much easier to make excuses......

 

[Dan White]

How do you know what "everybody" does because your statement means 100%. Most all players claim to use a system and there are many of them and all systems have a common factor which is FOCUSED VISUAL ALIGNMENT between the CB and OB. Where is the focus with feel? Is it a quick glimpse and boom, everything is automatic from that point on?

If no system is used in lieu of feel, wouldn't that be just getting up there and shooting any old way? What is it that all supposed "FEEL" players feel or see?

How can feel be transferred from one player to the next in words for teaching purposes?

It everybody shoots by feel in the end, why is the aiming feel of top pro players so far superior to beginners, league players, or bangers? Is it because they hit 5 million balls and not just a million? Is every non pro player supposed to quit their jobs and forgo all the years of education to spend time at a pool room hitting 5 million balls in the quest for an ever elusive feel that can't be defined or described?

Did you quit your job or do you continue to work? When did you reach pro status from feel alone?

What the hell is FEEL when it comes to a focused visual alignment process?

Here's what I'm saying when I say "everyone aims by feel:"

I've come to the conclusion that there are no aiming systems that can put you on the exact correct shot line. I believe this because systems like CTE are discrete, meaning if you follow them exactly to the letter, the object ball can only go in a number of finite directions. There are several respected physicists who say the exact same thing, and since these people also have expertise in billiards, I think their opinion is worth listening to. On the flip side, I have yet to meet anybody who can explain in regular english how CTE works... not one. So although I'd like there to be a system that puts you on the exact shot line, I do not believe it exists.

What I do believe is that the exact correct shot line can only be found through trial and error, which I called "feel." To answer your question, you cannot really tell a person how to aim, other than something like "ghost ball plus allow for throw." Put an object ball 1 diamond off the side rail and 2 diamonds off the foot rail. Put the cue ball 4 diamonds up table from there and have a beginner shoot this shot 50 times a day. He will gain a sense of where to aim in order to pocket the shot. I call this shooting by feel, and EVERYBODY who can play at all plays like this. How can I be so confident? 1) because, like I said above, there are no systems that can put you on the shot line, and 2) I can do it easily and naturally, and I'm certainly no big fish. If I can do it, every pro can, too. There are no shots where I "just can't see the shot and need something to fall back on." Aiming is almost a complete non issue. Let me say this -- a player may have a particular "system" like line up the side of the tip with the center of the cue ball, or whatever. In the end, it is his "feel" that makes the shot. I consider the rest of it to be just a pre shot routine, something done the same way every time to provide consistency. I guess for some it is helpful to do some kind of trick thing like put the tip on the cloth first, or edge of the shaft somewhere.

The real key to all this, of course, is the stroke. It is a fallacy to believe that a player can follow a set of instructions like CTE and start pocketing balls without regard to the quality of their stroke. I never hear Stan mention the importance of a great stroke. Most people cannot deliver the cue straight and on the intended line of aim. Delivering the cue straight and on the correct line = 90 or 95% of the battle. Aiming correctly = 5 or 10%, IMO. Those who do not have a reasonably perfect stroke will not understand this.

I always like the analogy of using the Iron Willie stroke machine. If you could magically turn your body into an Iron Willie machine, you'd probably never miss again. To answer your other question, the pro's are so good (in addition to other things, of course) because they have superior strokes. I can aim as well as Efren, and you probably can, too, but the stroke makes the difference.

 

[duckie]

LMAO! From the man who knows all, sees all, and is all in the world of pool. (at least in handicap leagues where he gets the handicap)

Really....so you know how I play huh....you are so full of shit....

You know nothing about me and my playing.

I don't do handicap leagues at all, nor do I give spots or take spots.

I only play heads up. So you really don't know shit huh about me.

I despise handicap leagues cause it gives a false sense of playing ability to those that do handicap leagues.

So really you look like a fool in assuming knowing something about someone that you have no clue about.

 

[Dan White]

The same thing occurs with my track riding.

What is "track riding"?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

To me, this means that your mechanics aren't quite right, and/or that the placement of your eyes is inconsistent. You may be making correcting errors that result in a straight cue delivery. However, if you don't have everything timed just right, you will be off. If you have good, solid mechanics like the pro's have, then taking time off shouldn't matter.

Then tell him exactly what he needs to do, Mr. Pro Instructor Dan...not just what his problems are. You ARE a professional instructor, correct? Where does he go from here?

I guess what you've never heard about is something called "RUST". Even a pro player gets it. An amateur has it set in a lot faster.

I thought his post was very astute and on the mark for "regular" pool players who don't rely on pool for a living. Guess he's not in your league.