Why pay to recover table

mvp said:
Last question, why you such a tool?
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I posted my prices....now where's them close up pictures? See, here's the truth of the matter. If you had PAID someone to come in and recover your pool table...and they did the exact same job you did...you'd be passed because you would have expected perfection for your money...BUT, because YOU did the work....it turned out OK, not perfect, but just OK in your book....because you saved money by doing it yourself. MY question is, why is it OK to except less than quality work from yourself, and yet....expect a higher quality job from someone you're paying, when it's clear....you'll accept sub standard work on your pool table..and be fine with it!
 
RKC Ok, your either wearing me down or that was a better response! I would watch your Vids on rails, and it would probably make mine better, your pricing is slightly higher than our local installers but they are truly con artist. it was a fun battling this morn! And our own work is ok because we are not the pros, we have jobs in other areas where we are the pros!
 
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I think this thread was destined to go sideways given its very first sentence:

"It makes me sick what people are paying to setup tables".

It's a very bold statement and I can see how it could ruffle some feathers. Actually, the way it was worded made it sound like an indictment.

There are a handful of *top tier* table mechanics like RKC, Mark Gregory, Jay Spielberg, Jack Zimmerman, and Donnie Wessels, whose work is so good that it seems their customers are willing to pay a little more knowing the end result will be perfect.

Why knock them or insult those who are willing to pay for exceptional results?

I admire people who have the confidence (skill, courage) that they would try to take on a project like this and no doubt there has to be a real level of satisfaction, once completed.

Nothing wrong, imo, with showing off what you were able to do but I'm sure it could have been presented in a much less confrontational way.

best,
brian kc
 
mvp said:
RKC Ok, your either wearing me down or that was a better response! I would watch your Vids on rails, and it would probably make mine better, your pricing is slightly higher than our local installers but they are truly con artist. it was a fun battling this morn! And our own work is ok because we are not the pros, we have jobs in other areas where we are the pros!
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Then, just to clear the air....I did take offense to your statement about why should anyone hire a pool table mechanic when you should be doing the work yourself and saving your money.....in so many words...you get the meaning. I have no problem with anyone wanting to recover their own pool table, and would never hold that against them. I have even gone so far as to teach some room owners to recover their own pool tables, I've posted countless threads on how to do this or that on pool tables....so that others might learn something. I sat back and drank coffee when my friend Cuebuddy' here on AZB wanted to help me set his Diamond Professional 9ft up, because what he really wanted to do....was MY job....LOL...so, under my guidance....he used my staple gun....and started learning how to install his own bed cloth.....and I DIDN'T even charge him extra....LMAO so, I didn't attack you directly, but I did go out of my way to protect the value of the table mechanics out here that are doing great work, that DO provide a Professional service. And one of my favorite saying is, you pay X amount of dollars to someone that really has no clue what they're doing on your pool table....how much should you pay someone that really DOES know what they're doing?.....the same amount you paid someone who didn't know?
 
Even so RKC You make yourself out to be the best that ever was. Like you have never hacked a table in your life. Seeing your first or even your 50th table recovering would be enlightening for us all I am sure.

The main point of this would be that everyone that even the best in the world had to start out somewhere and that is usually not at the top of their field. If you look back at the work you did when you first started (likely as an apprentice to someone else) I am sure you would consider that work unacceptable today after recovering likely thousands of tables. You are a professional that earns a living working on tables not just recovering them. You have advanced knowledge on how they are built and work.

Why cant you simply help others to learn to work on their own tables and do quality work on their own. Instead of simply telling them they are a hack and giving the impression anything they do is not good enough. Instead of trying to simply point out flaws in their work without at the same time offering a way to improve the quality of their own work.

I Know you used to post threads helping people but lately all your comments seem so negative and combative,

As far as your pricing goes a man needs to charge what they think they are worth. Honestly if you have not raised your pricing in 20 plus years you probably should just so you can live at the same quality of life as you did 20 years ago. All things were a lot cheaper then they are today with inflation and the cost of living.
 
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I just think that Most paid table installers (at least in my area) don't play pool, they don't "get" it! I would guess that for every 20 guys 1 knows what a good table is, the others are just younger guys getting a low dollar paycheck from a pool table dealer. But yet they still fall into this professional category! While there is definitely installers at the top of the profession like RKC, that command top dollar there are 19 other guys he wouldn't even let them help! In all honesty my original post was referring to these average workers vs the average do it yourselfer! I don't think there's much difference from a great pool player with patience and a $10 an hr table installers that the dealer sends out! For that I'm saying do it your self! I'm definitely no pro intaller but I'm a good player and a very handy guy with all tools, and I realize I couldnot and would not,do a table for a $50k televised pro match! Again I rate my work as a 9 while RKC is a 10 and the average paid installer a 6. I don't think anyone could argue the fact, that ones third try he could become average!

And to all the top notch paid installers, you sirs are the minority's, its like auto mechanics, the morons at the service station are professional mechanics the same as tony Stewart's race team! Both pro's, one clearly more qualified than the other. This argument is only to compare ave to ave guys! And damn it I don't have wrinkles!!!!!!!!!
 
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Kevin3824 said:
I was just thinking something RKC. That sounds like it was the posters first table recovering. You may not even realize there is a difference between constructive criticism and flat out condescending criticism. With constructive criticism you mention how they could have done better.

You pushed him to post his results so you could do this to him. How about you post on here images of the first table you ever recovered so we have something to compare it to. I say this because you come off on here as the best table mechanic of all time. Like nobody can do as good a job as you do.

Don't take too much offense by this I know you do some of the finest work out there after years of trial and error experience. I also know you have a reputation for quality over quantity, Meaning you don't concern yourself with how long a job takes to get it done right up to your own standards which are definitely much higher then most set.

Anyhow, Maybe you should also start a new thread so everyone can see the job you did on the first table you ever recovered completely on your own. I am quite sure I am not the only one that would be interested in seeing your early work. It would be a hot thread on here for sure if we could critic your first table as well. It might also give the op here something to compare his first try to as well. If you find images of the first table you ever recovered and look at them honestly now I bet you would see your own work as having been done by a hack as well. simply because you have likely learned something with each and every table you have worked on.
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I doubt after RKC did his first table, or his 50th, he didn't go disparaging everyone who has a pro do the work for them. I have no problem with the OP doing his own work. What was ridiculous was his claim that anyone NOT doing their own work made him sick. We all have different interests and while HIS interests give him some skills that MIGHT be enough to do a good job, many people have different skills that would not translate over to being able to do table set-up work. And that isn't something to get sick over, neither literally nor even figuratively.

Mark Twain famously said that we are all ignorant, just about different things. I'm sure there are a lot of things that I can do that the OP wouldn't consider tackling, but that doesn't make me sick. It isn't a one-size-fits-all world and the arrogance of the OP in disparaging the role of professionals and putting down everyone who does not do their own table work deserves the treatment RKC is giving him, IMO.
 
Why recover my own table? Because I have to.

The problem with most recover guys is that they are either poorly trained hourly workers, or some back-of-the-pickup gypsy with a business card.

The hourly guys are paid low wages, so they don't have any intention of making it a career and learning it as a trade. They are harried to recover the most tables in the shortest time, so the boss can make more money.

The pickup-truck gypsies too often decide to simply not back up their work. They walk away from any situation not to their liking. Not being members of the BBB, they hardly worry about complaints to that organization, and it is not likely a dissatisfied customer will be able to locate where they park their truck and raise hell in person.

A select few mechanics have a rep that they work hard to maintain by standing behind their work. But the problem is that few of these 'good guys' want to travel hundreds of miles for a simple recover job. Nor would I expect them to.

So that leaves me with a choice of either the billiard supply guys who work in a rush and don't have much more experience than me, or some local traveling guy who works out of his pickup, and refuses to return my calls asking him to correct the shoddy work he did on my table.

I can't afford any of these type of recover workers. So now I have to do it myself.
 
Texdance said:
Why recover my own table? Because I have to.

The problem with most recover guys is that they are either poorly trained hourly workers, or some back-of-the-pickup gypsy with a business card.

The hourly guys are paid low wages, so they don't have any intention of making it a career and learning it as a trade. They are harried to recover the most tables in the shortest time, so the boss can make more money.

The pickup-truck gypsies too often decide to simply not back up their work. They walk away from any situation not to their liking. Not being members of the BBB, they hardly worry about complaints to that organization, and it is not likely a dissatisfied customer will be able to locate where they park their truck and raise hell in person.

A select few mechanics have a rep that they work hard to maintain by standing behind their work. But the problem is that few of these 'good guys' want to travel hundreds of miles for a simple recover job. Nor would I expect them to.

So that leaves me with a choice of either the billiard supply guys who work in a rush and don't have much more experience than me, or some local traveling guy who works out of his pickup, and refuses to return my calls asking him to correct the shoddy work he did on my table.

I can't afford any of these type of recover workers. So now I have to do it myself.
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Which is why I made the Simonis cloth instalation DVDS, in an effort to help those that do this line of work for a living....AND, for all those that can't find a decent table mechanic in their area, so that they at least have a chance of doing the job better than those that want to get paid for doing a bad job....like you have NO choice but to hire them. In the DVDS, I'm not concerned in showing YOU that I know what I'm doing, they're made very clear to show YOU how to do the exact same thing I do....as in copy and paste....LOL
 
This is to anyone.... your table, your time and money, your back. If you can do and like the results no one can argue with you. And I commend you for DIY and taking pride in what you have done. I hate to pay someone to turn a screw if I can do it.
I don't mind paying for anything and don't expect anything for free. It's paying for a lousy job that hurts.
On the other hand...I play pool with a guy...says his dentist, plumber, car mechanic is a rip off.....I can't stand his mentality. And this is a self employed individual. I simply say...DIY or don't fix it.
 
realkingcobra said:
Your table looks like a hack worked on it to, which is why you didn't show any close up pictures of the pockets....I see all the wrinkles in them too, but....even hacks take pride in their work....right:thumbup:
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lol come on over, take a close up and try to find the wrinkles...
 
cleary said:
lol come on over, take a close up and try to find the wrinkles...
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Why would I need to do that, you're there already, take some close up pictures and post up, make sure you include the side pockets, pocket flaps and all....LMAO....let's see if you do that!
 
Best reason to pay a pro to do the job is if you are all thumbs, lower tool IF, not handy. In the long run you will have it done right before you screw up the job, and it costs you twice as much as had you hire a pro first.

There are u-tubes of most surgical procedures. Whold you operate on yourself after letting some one get your drunk so as not to expierence pain?
 
realkingcobra said:
Why would I need to do that, you're there already, take some close up pictures and post up, make sure you include the side pockets, pocket flaps and all....LMAO....let's see if you do that!
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Why anyone would want your arrogant ass sleeping in their driveway for a week so they can have the prettiest "pocket flaps" on the block is beyond me. Hahahaha pocket flaps! how do the balls even roll???
 
realkingcobra said:
Why would I need to do that, you're there already, take some close up pictures and post up, make sure you include the side pockets, pocket flaps and all....LMAO....let's see if you do that!
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Why all the bullshit.....who cares if 5 guys on AZ cover their own tables.
But...why even post that you dud your own table...who cares.
If your a mechinest or and CNC expert....then you have a big edge on most 95% of the so called table mechanics offering work.
Maybe even better than some of the so called " mechanics " that post on this site.....lmao
No ones up set that you ask why people would pay to have their table recovered.....most do get ripped off.....but your are by far more mechanically inclined than most people.
Maybe that's why they pay to have the work done.
It's sad how many people out there offer table services...and don't have a clue......so now it's a hard call to have someone install your table and hope for the best....and pay good money at the end.
I did my own table as a kid at 13.....took forever.....turned out like shit....but I wanted to play pool....I didn't care about the cloth.
But....the standards have changed......now people want a great job....and don't mind paying....but don't want hack work either.
How does someone tell good work from bad.....that's the part Glen and I have trouble with.....cause when the tables are done....for the most part....hell...they all look the same.

Sure the level of the table for one....but the guy says....well you have to let the cloth break in....in a week or so the table will be fine....or some other crazy shit.

I don't blame anyone for covering their own table....self satisfaction....save a little....but if you have a choice of a top mechanic that you know for a fact is.....then pay.
If you don't know who your getting.....I would a temp the job.....cause your work is going to be really close to theirs.
The big problem is no certification in this industry....and if someone is....who certified them.....lmao
No need going back and forth about shit that don't mean anything.....when it's all said and done...IT'S A POOL TABLE?...big deal.
But there are a lot of people out there that truly want the best job they can get....and will pay for it.

AND TO SETTLE EVERYTHING.......I'M THE BEST.....that's right I said it.
Have a nice day.
 
realkingcobra said:
Then, just to clear the air....I did take offense to your statement about why should anyone hire a pool table mechanic when you should be doing the work yourself and saving your money.....in so many words...you get the meaning. I have no problem with anyone wanting to recover their own pool table, and would never hold that against them. I have even gone so far as to teach some room owners to recover their own pool tables, I've posted countless threads on how to do this or that on pool tables....so that others might learn something. I sat back and drank coffee when my friend Cuebuddy' here on AZB wanted to help me set his Diamond Professional 9ft up, because what he really wanted to do....was MY job....LOL...so, under my guidance....he used my staple gun....and started learning how to install his own bed cloth.....and I DIDN'T even charge him extra....LMAO so, I didn't attack you directly, but I did go out of my way to protect the value of the table mechanics out here that are doing great work, that DO provide a Professional service. And one of my favorite saying is, you pay X amount of dollars to someone that really has no clue what they're doing on your pool table....how much should you pay someone that really DOES know what they're doing?.....the same amount you paid someone who didn't know?
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Hey! I remember that. I take very good care of my table and have since Glen left.
I did not mind paying to have my Diamond set up and let me tell you I was damn lucky to have Glen stop by and do the work and give me a lesson on the side.

My problem is after having the best put my table together I can never trust anyone else, I would rather trust myself. When the day comes to re-cloth my table I will call Glen and if he is busy than I buy the DVD and bust a move.

Cuebuddy...crazy handy.
 
cleary said:
Why anyone would want your arrogant ass sleeping in their driveway for a week so they can have the prettiest "pocket flaps" on the block is beyond me. Hahahaha pocket flaps! how do the balls even roll???
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Cleary, you're like a child....that only a mother could love, because no one else can stand to look at you.....installing the cloth sloppy as hell....is only something you could justify.....because no one else would pay you for your hack work, there's already way to many people posing as pool table mechanics ripping customers off, so go ahead and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.....because from a distance, everyone's work looks great....up close tells the truth!
 
perfectpocketz said:
Why all the bullshit.....who cares if 5 guys on AZ cover their own tables.
But...why even post that you dud your own table...who cares.
If your a mechinest or and CNC expert....then you have a big edge on most 95% of the so called table mechanics offering work.
Maybe even better than some of the so called " mechanics " that post on this site.....lmao
No ones up set that you ask why people would pay to have their table recovered.....most do get ripped off.....but your are by far more mechanically inclined than most people.
Maybe that's why they pay to have the work done.
It's sad how many people out there offer table services...and don't have a clue......so now it's a hard call to have someone install your table and hope for the best....and pay good money at the end.
I did my own table as a kid at 13.....took forever.....turned out like shit....but I wanted to play pool....I didn't care about the cloth.
But....the standards have changed......now people want a great job....and don't mind paying....but don't want hack work either.
How does someone tell good work from bad.....that's the part Glen and I have trouble with.....cause when the tables are done....for the most part....hell...they all look the same.

Sure the level of the table for one....but the guy says....well you have to let the cloth break in....in a week or so the table will be fine....or some other crazy shit.

I don't blame anyone for covering their own table....self satisfaction....save a little....but if you have a choice of a top mechanic that you know for a fact is.....then pay.
If you don't know who your getting.....I would a temp the job.....cause your work is going to be really close to theirs.
The big problem is no certification in this industry....and if someone is....who certified them.....lmao
No need going back and forth about shit that don't mean anything.....when it's all said and done...IT'S A POOL TABLE?...big deal.
But there are a lot of people out there that truly want the best job they can get....and will pay for it.

AND TO SETTLE EVERYTHING.......I'M THE BEST.....that's right I said it.
Have a nice day.
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If you ever leave that small block you live on....you might just be in for a big suprise, I'm always having to hear there's a 100 pool table mechanics just as good as either one of us.....LMAO
 
realkingcobra said:
Cleary, you're like a child....that only a mother could love, because no one else can stand to look at you.....installing the cloth sloppy as hell....is only something you could justify.....because no one else would pay you for your hack work, there's already way to many people posing as pool table mechanics ripping customers off, so go ahead and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.....because from a distance, everyone's work looks great....up close tells the truth!
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I have been stung by the hack table mechanics. Ended up costing me a lot of time and money to fix it.

Thankfully Glenn, Rob and a few others had some great advice and helped me through the fix.

People on this thread seem to think Glenn is against people doing their own table. The reality is that he regularly helps table owners fix and work on their tables and never asks anything in return.

My advice is pay someone who knows what they are doing). If you are going to try it yourself, make sure you have guidance from someone like Glenn.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
 
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