Eye Pattern Before Shooting

evis...Sounds very similar to what I do. Here's what we teach... Standing up you center yourself on the shot line, looking back and forth between CB and OB (you've already determined ASS). Step into the shot line, and drop into your shooting stance...finalize your aim with your tip very close to the CB. Focus on the CB for a second or two, then focus on the OB the same same way (cuestick does not move while this happens). Warmups with eyes on CB only. Stop...shift eyes to OB, and swing your cuestick to your natural finish position (when you shift your eyes determines your PEP). Finish, freeze, and evaluate. :D

evis said:
Hey Scott,

How do you feel about focusing on the cb when getting down on the shot instead of the contact point first? I sight everything when I'm standing and when I'm ready to get down on shot I focus on the where I want to hit the cb, then I shift My eyes to the object ball and pull the trigger if everything looks good.
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Scott Lee said:
evis...Sounds very similar to what I do. Here's what we teach... Standing up you center yourself on the shot line, looking back and forth between CB and OB (you've already determined ASS). Step into the shot line, and drop into your shooting stance...finalize your aim with your tip very close to the CB. Focus on the CB for a second or two, then focus on the OB the same same way (cuestick does not move while this happens). Warmups with eyes on CB only. Stop...shift eyes to OB, and swing your cuestick to your natural finish position (when you shift your eyes determines your PEP). Finish, freeze, and evaluate. :D
Click to expand...

I know some people advocate switching focus between the cue ball and object ball during practice strokes. Looking at object ball on backswing and shifting to cue ball when cue is moving forward. Is there a particular reason you teach to move eyes back and forth when cue is in set position only?
 
Yes...The "moving your eyes back and forth during warm ups" is an old school concept. New science in how the eyes work best with the brain and body show that a focused look at the CB while moving the cue back and forth in warm ups leads to a more accurate tip placement . It's also vital in terms of learning not to touch the CB by accident while performing warm ups.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

nine_ball6970 said:
I know some people advocate switching focus between the cue ball and object ball during practice strokes. Looking at object ball on backswing and shifting to cue ball when cue is moving forward. Is there a particular reason you teach to move eyes back and forth when cue is in set position only?
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Scott Lee said:
"Dave...The cuestick has to go in the direction you're looking, for the CB to follow. The semantics being played here is ridiculous. Your cuestick, AND CB go where your eyes go...happy?"

Some of you think this may be just semantics but I'm actually shocked that you're not grasping what John is saying here. This is a game of millimeters, or is it nanometers? So while your cue stick may go in the general direction of your eyes, more often than not -- it will NOT be going specifically where your eyes are looking. Only on center ball shots will your cue go where you are looking and that's provided your eyes are starring at the center of the ghost ball, which few people actually do.

Face it -- telling people their cue stick follows their eyes or even that it should is bad advice. Your cue stick should follow the path that your body has locked itself into.

I guess this all boils down to whether you look at the aim point or the contact point. I think most players are focused one way or another on the contact point.
 
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when dealing with a perfectly straight line it's very hard to say that the ball and stick go where you look.
on another hand how many of you have shot a basket ball before? do you look at the basket ball or the ring?
last the eye is a very imperfect thing that does brilliant things and uses trickery to help us analyze things, with that being said and an example i like to use is for anyone who has ever shot a rifle or bow or every your a pool cue for this example.
you are 10X more likely to let's say hit the target if your sight line came from your shoulder or closer to your eyes as is common with a rifle or bow, for the pool cue let's just say i asked you to point it at a spot on the wall and you'd do the same. Now how much do you like your chances if you were to him fire the rifle or aim at that spot on the wall with the butt of the cue by your side pocket.
What i'm saying is although your eyes will be looking at the target your device or tool will not so it all falls back on the number one thing that keep mentioning and that's perception, ones perception of a straight line (back to pool) is what matters the most, getting down on a shot, cueing and seeing the overlap of the CB/OB is far bigger than anything you do prior IMO. Because technically yes you hand will tend to drift in the direction to which it feels that your body and eye is aligned resulting in that miss that you felt was such a low percentage.
That's the best way i feel that i can explain it at this time.
 
FWIW, despite disagreement where the stupid cue goes, my routine is pretty similar to Scott's anyhow. Not consciously, but I know I generally focus on the cue ball during warmups, and then generally focus on the object ball for my stroke. Not always, but something like that.

I usually have a pause in my backstroke, and that's when I shift to the cue ball and decide to pull the trigger. Sometimes it just doesn't feel right...the cue came back funny, or something else is just off. I stop and refocus on the cue ball and take a couple of practice strokes just to see what's going on. Usually it means that I've closed up my stance and I need to open it up to get everything lined up again. When I'm doing it all right, and I'm in the "can't miss" zone, I can feel that the cue is traveling dead straight...

...not necessarily where I'm looking. :p

I don't like looking back and forth. I feel like that just builds up tension and stress. I like it when it feels calm, confident and deliberate.

Just what works for me.
 
If you throw a dart, do you look at the bullseye or the hand holding the dart?

You should focus on your contact point and when you drop into a shooting stance, you should still be looking at the object ball with your peripheral vision on where you want to strike the cue ball. Try this if you have always been looking at cue ball last. Usually, it works for most of us. I read this from a book written by Jimmy White (snooker player)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvttHibDCAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuGoJ3ToRU

Chezka Centeno is the next phenomenon in female pool. She is known for her quickness and unerring accuracy. The video showed her when she was 13 years old playing in her hometown.

Watch carefully her eyes when she goes into the shooting stance. It never leaves the object ball - the second video.
 
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Since you are an admitted low level amateur player, with below average understanding of the importance of delivery accuracy, you're not qualified to offer advice on eye patterns.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

precisepotting said:
If you throw a dart, do you look at the bullseye or the hand holding the dart?

You should focus on your contact point and when you drop into a shooting stance, you should still be looking at the object ball with your peripheral vision on where you want to strike the cue ball. Try this if you have always been looking at cue ball last. Usually, it works for most of us. I read this from a book written by Jimmy White (snooker player)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvttHibDCAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuGoJ3ToRU

Chezka Centeno is the next phenomenon in female pool. She is known for her quickness and unerring accuracy. The video showed her when she was 13 years old playing in her hometown.

Watch carefully her eyes when she goes into the shooting stance. It never leaves the object ball - the second video.
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Huh? I got all these from books. So do you right? It can't be that you do all those eye studies yourself, I am pretty sure. So, we pick from books and discuss here. If it is based on experience, all of us have experience one way or another. I probably can pot balls with english more accurately than many members here. So, please do not put others down and think so highly of yourself.

At least I am being honest. How many of those that gave their advice admitted to being professionals? Are they? Why don't you qualify them first.

Looking at object ball last is from Jimmy White. I bought his book and I am just passing his knowledge here.

And if you pay attention, you will see Chezka looking at only the object ball intently when she stoop down for the shot.

Ok, thanks pro.
 
I guess this is your forum where only you can discuss and give opinion. The rest of us are not. So your aiming system should be the best and we should follow your it period.

Anyway, I have decided to keep quiet from other threads from now on, since I am just a low level beginner.

Have fun coaching.
 
This thread has turned into a very good debate. I wish we had more of these.

I still maintain that this so-called 'eye pattern' is unique to each shot, and I say that simply because I believe that each shot we take is unique. Each one is different than the one before it, even though that difference may be infinitesimal. :smile:
 
Tramp Steamer said:
This thread has turned into a very good debate. I wish we had more of these.

I still maintain that this so-called 'eye pattern' is unique to each shot, and I say that simply because I believe that each shot we take is unique. Each one is different than the one before it, even though that difference may be infinitesimal. :smile:
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Yeah, nice debate! I agree with you that with some specific shot (precision shot, jacked up shot, jump shot, etc.) eye pattern may (or may not) be different.

But for most of the shots, eventhough they are all unique, you should have the same eye pattern for better consistency. I mean the cut angle is different, the speed you shoot at is different, the spin you put is different, but the actual motion of stroking should most likely be the same for a vast majority of shots :)

And you're right, it's nice to debate nicely without insults like so many other threads! lol

Cheers!
 
Tramp Steamer said:
This thread has turned into a very good debate. I wish we had more of these.

I still maintain that this so-called 'eye pattern' is unique to each shot, and I say that simply because I believe that each shot we take is unique. Each one is different than the one before it, even though that difference may be infinitesimal. :smile:
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I did that for years, switching around with various shots, but my goal was a set-up/shoot recipe that worked for almost all shots. If I varied my setup eye pattern shooting recipe, I ruined my rhythm and that haunted me and caused unforced misses. Yuk!

After all these years of playing and reaching my million shots, I have just this year finally come up with a recipe that works for almost all shots. I was surprised at this just last night as I was shooting a few weird setup shots and it suddenly occurred to me that I was using the exact same setup/eye pattern for each one AND IT WORKED.

My story probably isn't interesting for others here, but as I'm am toward the end of my setup/ eye pattern quest, I thought this thread was a good place to state it and might help a few here. If anyone wants to know the details, just ask.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I did that for years, switching around with various shots, but my goal was a set-up/shoot recipe that worked for almost all shots. If I varied my setup eye pattern shooting recipe, I ruined my rhythm and that haunted me and caused unforced misses. Yuk!

After all these years of playing and reaching my million shots, I have just this year finally come up with a recipe that works for almost all shots. I was surprised at this just last night as I was shooting a few weird setup shots and it suddenly occurred to me that I was using the exact same setup/eye pattern for each one AND IT WORKED.

My story probably isn't interesting for others here, but as I'm am toward the end of my setup/ eye pattern quest, I thought this thread was a good place to state it and might help a few here. If anyone wants to know the details, just ask.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
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I am interested in your details
Pm ok if you prefer
Thanks
 
chefjeff said:
I did that for years, switching around with various shots, but my goal was a set-up/shoot recipe that worked for almost all shots. If I varied my setup eye pattern shooting recipe, I ruined my rhythm and that haunted me and caused unforced misses. Yuk!

After all these years of playing and reaching my million shots, I have just this year finally come up with a recipe that works for almost all shots. I was surprised at this just last night as I was shooting a few weird setup shots and it suddenly occurred to me that I was using the exact same setup/eye pattern for each one AND IT WORKED.

My story probably isn't interesting for others here, but as I'm am toward the end of my setup/ eye pattern quest, I thought this thread was a good place to state it and might help a few here. If anyone wants to know the details, just ask.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
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Im too very interested in your story. Im currently in a rapid improvement. Worked hard for the past 2years on my fundamental, and although it is not perfect, i can say i've found a solid base that works for me. Im always looking to improve!

That being said during those two yeats, i havent set on a specific eye pattern. I tried many, and so far im unable to pick one and use it naturally /subconsciously.

Share your story, it may help other! :)
 
nfuids said:
Share your story, it may help other! :)
Click to expand...

I am interested in your details
Click to expand...

OK, a quick synopsis:

I divide my going-into-stance into 3 parts:

1 Standing
2 Bent at the waist
3 Bent at the knees (I have a bad back, so this one is personal, not universal)

While standing I do all my planning and aiming, and I sometimes close my eyes to "see the movie" and to lubricate/rest my eyes. This takes the longest of the 3 steps

When satisfied, and only when satisfied (and after using as many eye movements as I need to find the aim), I then bend at the waist only (counter-intuitive, but it works for me in spite of bad back) to begin my bridge and grip. Before I bend over at the waist, I switch to looking at the cueball, not the object ball. This is to ensure that my cue in stays in line and my tip, too. I was losing my tip contact point when I did it the old way. After my bridge is perfect, I look again at the object ball then the cue ball and tweak my alignment to perfection. This part takes less time than the standing part.

If OK, I keep looking at the cue ball while bending my knees to go into my final, low-down stance. It is here where I keep my eyes on the cue ball/cue tip and I do two deliberate practice strokes to lock-in my swing speed (I'm fully aligned so no need to reconsider aim now) and then come to the SET. This takes the least time of the three parts.

I then look up at the object ball and backstroke to the PAUSE then the FINISH. If after looking up, I realize the shot is somehow not aligned, I stand up and repeat it all. This rarely happens because I put full confidence in my setup and make myself trust that. My goal, though, is to get all of the alignment done before my final knee drop, and this has usually been the result because of the first two steps.

My final look is at the object ball as it disappears into the hole and the cue ball stopping where desired.:wink:

The main difference from most here is my looking at the cueball as I drop, vs. looking at the object ball when doing so. This really helped. Also, I think I've reduced my eye movements to the least number possible....the ol' quiet eye thingy. I had removed one of those steps earlier this year and it worked for a while and I did pretty good at the state tourneys, etc., but then things went south so I put that eye movement back in, but in a better place than I had it before.

I'm just about to full automatic doing this so my rhythm is really coming together no matter what the shot is or how hard it is to setup. I'm thinking I've found the holy grail for me, re eye pattern and setup and the final stroke.

I hope that makes sense.


Jeff Livingston
 
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