Who all could Skyler Woodward play even against on the big tables (in 9 ball)?

[Scott Lee]

Kerry...The person to speak to about Fargorate is Mike Page...he's the proverbial 'horse's mouth'. Nobody knows as much about this ratings system than him...including all the variables that people here keep arguing about.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

To be fair Scott, Justin did ask "am I wrong about that?". So maybe you could shed some light on his question. I'd be curious myself.

KMRUNOUT

 

[gxman]

I am curious how you think Skyler would do against Archer (in a long gambling session, or a long race, playing 9 ball on a 9 foot Diamond for example)? Archer is one of my all time most favorite players, so just curious how these 2 players would match up against each other, and what you think the outcome would be if they were playing even? Thanks.

I think Ignacio or one of the phillipine young guns played Archer on his home table maybe a year ago for about 5K. Archer got beat bad. Might've been PPV match, dont remember.

 

[justinb386]

I think Ignacio or one of the phillipine young guns played Archer on his home table maybe a year ago for about 5K. Archer got beat bad. Might've been PPV match, dont remember.

I think I remember hearing about that match. I think they were playing call shot, and call safe. I never learned how it turned out though. Archer probably does not play as well as he played back in the 90's I am guessing.

 

[one stroke]

I think I remember hearing about that match. I think they were playing call shot, and call safe. I never learned how it turned out though. Archer probably does not play as well as he played back in the 90's I am guessing.

He got flat out smoked it was never ever a contest on his own set up table that many of player wouldn't take the challenge


1

 

[one stroke]

Kerry...The person to speak to about Fargorate is Mike Page...he's the proverbial 'horse's mouth'. Nobody knows as much about this ratings system than him...including all the variables that people here keep arguing about.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

True that , but he's the only one privy to such info going into the number , but is not so privy to gambling matches that don't go into those numbers


1

 

[Scott Lee]

Gambling matches should never be entered into Fargorate, imo. It's difficult enough to get players to play on the level in tournament matches. There's far too many shenanigans possible and probable with gambling, which would distort the ratings. It's a good system, and ratings will even out with more tournament play data entered.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

True that , but he's the only one privy to such info going into the number , but is not so privy to gambling matches that don't go into those numbers


1

 

[one stroke]

Gambling matches should never be entered into Fargorate, imo. It's difficult enough to get players to play on the level in tournament matches. There's far too many shenanigans possible and probable with gambling, which would distort the ratings. It's a good system, and ratings will even out with more tournament play data entered.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

That's all fine and dandy but we are talking match ups in this thread not tourney play
and picking a winner if your only using Fargo rate you simply don't have all the info you might need

1

 

[mikepage]

To be fair Scott, Justin did ask "am I wrong about that?". So maybe you could shed some light on his question. I'd be curious myself.

KMRUNOUT

When he said "Am I wrong about that?", there were two things that preceded it and I'm not sure which one he was referring to.

The second was that Fargorate includes games played on all table sizes. He is right about that.

The first was that a Fargo Rating is not going to tell who is better on a particular size table. I think he is largely wrong about that.

Bear in mind that we don't NEED to include all table sizes in our optimization. We choose to. And we choose to because we have examined this issue quite a bit, and we find the downside of glossing over subtle differences in table-size-specific skill is overwhelmed by the upside of having more data. Fact is Skylar plays just fine on a 9-foot table--just as well as he plays on a 7-foot table.

We can see this in our optimizations that include only 9-foot data.

But you can notice that he
beat Bergman 11-5 on the 10-foot table at Bigfoot challenge
beat Yu Lung Chang 11-8 at the US Open
beat Alex Pagulayan 11-8 at the US Open
and so forth...

Skylar will perform against the Europeans at about the level his Fargo Rating suggests. There is no need to put an asterick next to his name because he has a lot of 7-foot table results.

 

[mikepage]

I think Ignacio or one of the phillipine young guns played Archer on his home table maybe a year ago for about 5K. Archer got beat bad. Might've been PPV match, dont remember.

Yes Ignacio beat Archer 25 to 14 playing 10-ball on the 9-foot table for 5K.

 

[BmoreMoney]

that's all fine and dandy but we are talking match ups in this thread not tourney play
and picking a winner if your only using fargo rate you simply don't have all the info you might need

1

+1, tap, tap, tappiety tap!!!

 

[highkarate]

How did Skyler do in the Philippines when he had recently went?

I saw he was playing against Johann Chua, Biado, and a couple other big names.

Why cant the US boys line up to play like that here? About the only time theres a match in the US it is exhibition or they're playing to split PPV appearance fees.

a few of these matches are on youtube. i watched the one against ignacio, and ignacio won handily if memory serves me correctly

 

[Johnnyt]

Sky is not an underdog anymore to many players. Johnnyt

 

[justinb386]

a few of these matches are on youtube. i watched the one against ignacio, and ignacio won handily if memory serves me correctly

The table conditions seems to be so much different in the Philippines. Skyler was playing on their turf, and they were much more used to those very humid table conditions, so I think they had an advantage against Skyler.

I am curious if Skyler went over to the Philippines by himself, or who all he went with. I imagine it must have been a pretty exciting experience.

 

[Rhea]

I would just like to start out by saying that I am a Skyler Woodward fan.

I think he is a great player, and he has a great attitude, and demeanor I think.

Maybe he could become a world 9 ball champion someday.

I am just curious who all you think he he at least on an even playing field with, playing 9 ball on the big tables for example?

I know that he is one of the best bar table players, but I am curious who all he would have a decent (at least 50/50% chance against, playing 9 or 10 ball on a 9 foot table)?

For example, how do you think he would do against guys like Jayson Shaw, or Mika Immonen (just to name a few examples) playing 9 ball on a 9 foot Diamond?

I understand that most like to say that the best way to tell who the better player is if it is a race to 100, but since most tournaments are a race to maybe 11 (I think), then lets just say who you think he is at least on an even playing field with in a race to 11 (or maybe a race to 15).

I am just curious on opinions about this.

By the way, I wish Skyler the best. I hope he does great in future big table events (I have not followed the stats of all of the big tournaments, so I am not even sure how well he has done in the past in big table pro events).

Thanks.

Hayato Hijikata JPN [M]
Naoyuki Oi TWN [M]
Roberto Gomez PHI [M]
Antonio Gabica PHI [M]
Hao Xiang Han CHN [M]
Vilmos Foldes HUN [M]
Ruslan Chinakhov RUS [M]
Nick VanDenBerg NED [M]
Earl Strickland USA [M]
Mario He AUT [M]
Jui An Hsu TWN [M]
Shawn Putnam USA [M]
David Alcaide ESP [M]
Francisco Diaz-Pizarro ESP [M]
Chezka Centeno PHI [F]
Yukio Akagariyama JPN [M]
Corey Deuel USA [M]
Ramil Gallego PHI [M]
Johnathan Pinegar USA [M]
Che Wei Fu TPE [M]
Wojciech Szewczyk POL [M]
Karol Skowerski POL [M]
Phil Burford GBR [M]
Isral Afrinneza Nasution IDN [M]
Petri Makkonen FIN [M]
Dennis Hatch USA [M]
Larry Nevel USA [M]
Han Yu CHN [F]
Siming Chen CHN [F]

This is a list of all the players Skylar could theoretically play even with on a 9 foot table and the results would be a coinflip.

 

[The-Professor]

When he said "Am I wrong about that?", there were two things that preceded it and I'm not sure which one he was referring to.

The second was that Fargorate includes games played on all table sizes. He is right about that.

The first was that a Fargo Rating is not going to tell who is better on a particular size table. I think he is largely wrong about that.

Bear in mind that we don't NEED to include all table sizes in our optimization. We choose to. And we choose to because we have examined this issue quite a bit, and we find the downside of glossing over subtle differences in table-size-specific skill is overwhelmed by the upside of having more data. Fact is Skylar plays just fine on a 9-foot table--just as well as he plays on a 7-foot table.

We can see this in our optimizations that include only 9-foot data.

But you can notice that he
beat Bergman 11-5 on the 10-foot table at Bigfoot challenge
beat Yu Lung Chang 11-8 at the US Open
beat Alex Pagulayan 11-8 at the US Open
and so forth...

Skylar will perform against the Europeans at about the level his Fargo Rating suggests. There is no need to put an asterick next to his name because he has a lot of 7-foot table results.

I'm a Skyler fan, he plays fantastic on ALL Tables no question. But.... I bet there is a short list of pro players who wouldn't prefer to play him on a 9ft table compared to the 7ft table.

He obviously plays pro speed on both tables.. But... he plays ELITE pro speed on the 7ft table. I don't think it takes away from his game or reputation to say that he plays better on a 7ft comparably.

Its kind of like saying that Rafael Nadal played his best tennis on clay courts. He won pro tournaments on grass and hard courts.... but given the choice.... nobody would have picked to play him on clay.

 

[mikepage]

I'm a Skyler fan, he plays fantastic on ALL Tables no question. But.... I bet there is a short list of pro players who wouldn't prefer to play him on a 9ft table compared to the 7ft table.

I think you are likely right about this.

He obviously plays pro speed on both tables.. But... he plays ELITE pro speed on the 7ft table. I don't think it takes away from his game or reputation to say that he plays better on a 7ft comparably.

[...]

Here I contend you and the pro players referred to above are wrong.

I say this after examining the evidence carefully. I am not sharing the details here, but I find Skylar's performance for 800+ games played on 9-foot tables over the last two years matches his overall performance or his performance on 7-foot tables very closely.

I think it is common in pool to have what I call NARRATIVES that while they may have some truth to them are both exaggerated and persist after the evidence shows otherwise.

The NARRATIVE that SVB was not a high-level one pocket player was pretty strong the day before he won Derby one pocket event. Psychologists have found that the act of stating an opinion out loud has a big effect on how subsequent evidence is viewed. If we have verbalized that service is bad at this restaurant we tend to weight new evidence that fits the narrative higher than new evidence that doesn't.

I think that Skylar plays better on a 7-foot table is a narrative that should die.
The evidence fails to support it.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Mike

Did you take into consideration the caliber of players he played in tournaments that used 7 footers vs tournaments that used 9 footers?

If not, you should. It matters.

 

[terryhanna]

I'm a Skyler fan, he plays fantastic on ALL Tables no question. But.... I bet there is a short list of pro players who wouldn't prefer to play him on a 9ft table compared to the 7ft table.

He obviously plays pro speed on both tables.. But... he plays ELITE pro speed on the 7ft table. I don't think it takes away from his game or reputation to say that he plays better on a 7ft comparably.

Its kind of like saying that Rafael Nadal played his best tennis on clay courts. He won pro tournaments on grass and hard courts.... but given the choice.... nobody would have picked to play him on clay.

I am not that familiar with ranking or ratings or how they work, but i have been following Sky's play the last few years...when it comes to bar box events Sky wins or has a top finish in almost every single one he enters.

If they had some sort of system that ranked nothing but bar table events i bet Sky would be #1 on that list or at the very least one of the top 3.

I agree he is a great player on any table but when it comes to bar tables he is a World Beater in all these big money bar table calcutta events with $1000s of dollars being bid on the players Sky is always one of the top 1-3 players taken no matter who is in the field.

Ever since Sky won the bar table 9 ball fight night vs Jesse Bowman like 2 years ago he has had a standing offer to play any challenger race to 100 for minimum of 10k 9 ball on bar table, and not one single player has stepped up to the plate and played.

If he had that same offer on 9ft table no doubt there would be plenty of players that played him by now.

 

[The-Professor]

I am not that familiar with ranking or ratings or how they work, but i have been following Sky's play the last few years...when it comes to bar box events Sky wins or has a top finish in almost every single one he enters.

If they had some sort of system that ranked nothing but bar table events i bet Sky would be #1 on that list or at the very least one of the top 3.

I agree he is a great player on any table but when it comes to bar tables he is a World Beater in all these big money bar table calcutta events with $1000s of dollars being bid on the players Sky is always one of the top 1-3 players taken no matter who is in the field.

Ever since Sky won the bar table 9 ball fight night vs Jesse Bowman like 2 years ago he has had a standing offer to play any challenger race to 100 for minimum of 10k 9 ball on bar table, and not one single player has stepped up to the plate and played.

If he had that same offer on 9ft table no doubt there would be plenty of players that played him by now.

I couldn't agree more....

This is no way diminishes the fact that he plays great on a 9ft table also... he's just better on the bar table than the big table comparatively at this point in his career.

If you just look at his wins in long races (21 I believe) against Shane on the bar table, that is much less likely on a 9ft table in my opinion.

 

[justinb386]

I am not that familiar with ranking or ratings or how they work, but i have been following Sky's play the last few years...when it comes to bar box events Sky wins or has a top finish in almost every single one he enters.

If they had some sort of system that ranked nothing but bar table events i bet Sky would be #1 on that list or at the very least one of the top 3.

I agree he is a great player on any table but when it comes to bar tables he is a World Beater in all these big money bar table calcutta events with $1000s of dollars being bid on the players Sky is always one of the top 1-3 players taken no matter who is in the field.

Ever since Sky won the bar table 9 ball fight night vs Jesse Bowman like 2 years ago he has had a standing offer to play any challenger race to 100 for minimum of 10k 9 ball on bar table, and not one single player has stepped up to the plate and played.

If he had that same offer on 9ft table no doubt there would be plenty of players that played him by now.

I remember reading awhile back that SVB has a millionaire backer (not sure if that is true, or if he still uses that same backer), but even if he did not have a backer (and played with his own money), would Shane not have at least a 50/50 chance against Skyler playing 9 ball, race to 100, on a bar table? Or how about Jeffrey Ignacio? How do you think he would do against Skyler if he were to accept that challenge? I do not know. Maybe Skyler is the best bar table player in the world. It is just hard to believe that not even 1 player has accepted his challenge. Are there no gamblers left in pool?