What I see as the most promising future for pool trnmnts.

[alphadog]

Handicapped trnmnts based on FargoRatings.Start with local events,proceed to regional events,finish with a national event. World events could happen also.

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?
Fargorate numbers will adjust themseves as play is carried out.

Industry sponsors and "hotel/casinos" may be involved.
Outside sponsors such as Redbull,Miller,Nike,Jack Link's,are other potential partners.

What do you guys think?

 

[jtaylor996]

Handicapped trnmnts based on FargoRatings.Start with local events,proceed to regional events,finish with a national event. World events could happen also.

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?
Fargorate numbers will adjust themseves as play is carried out.

Industry sponsors and "hotel/casinos" may be involved.
Outside sponsors such as Redbull,Miller,Nike,Jack Link's,are other potential partners.

What do you guys think?

Any handicapping system can be gamed if you're willing to sandbag long enough. And that can be a long time if a lot of money is involved.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Handicapped trnmnts based on FargoRatings.Start with local events,proceed to regional events,finish with a national event. World events could happen also.

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?
Fargorate numbers will adjust themseves as play is carried out.

Industry sponsors and "hotel/casinos" may be involved.
Outside sponsors such as Redbull,Miller,Nike,Jack Link's,are other potential partners.

What do you guys think?

pff..Handicapping, what a joke! What's the point of winning the WPC with a handicap?! It's f-ing worthless!

I will never understand this American obsession with money being the only reason to compete. Where is your pride? What possible pride can a person take from a handicapped win? You beat Usain Bolt on a hundred meter sprint, where he has to wear an old fashioned diving suit (with the hose and the visor etc). Is that something to brag to your buddies about? Are you going to say you are the worlds best sprinter now? It's just a joke, plain and simple.

Now, if you do beat someone, while giving up a handicap, that may be a good thing for your ego. At the same time, your ego is protected if you happen to lose. I don't think this is very good for the best player either. There is a raw, competitive man-against-man nature about pool, that I find very appealing. Whenever that aspect of the game is compromised by stupid rules or handicapping, it takes away most of the joy of the game, for me. You didn't defeat that guy because of your wits and raw skill, only because you got a huge head start.

I understand the shame that some feel when they lose at this game, I feel that too. But it's part of the joy of the game, knowing the other side of the coin. The thrill is even greater, knowing the agony of defeat. In a way I think it's a very good feeling, knowing there is a higher level of player above me. It gives me hope that I too, can become better than I am now and it gives me motivation to work on my skills to reach a higher level. What possible use could it be to improve if the game is handicapped, anyway? To get better and then sandbag? That's for scum! I laugh when I read the APA threads, about the pure glee that they take winning the game on a techicality or through "handicap management". We all know what the latter means. I guess there are a lot of people who DO take pride in things like this. It makes me sad for humanity.

So, no, I don't feel very good about handicapping games at all. I do however enjoy knowing how I stack up against others, so that part of Fargorate is a good thing, even if it is flawed in some respects.

 

[Mark Griffin]

The original poster GETS it. That is one of the advantages of Fargo Rate. It is not a handicapping system - it is a rating system.

If you want the masses involved, there has to be a FAIR and accurate method of determining the different skill levels. That is what FargoRate does.

jTaylor996; doesn't understand the FargoRate system very well.

Mark Griffin

 

[pocket]

So few players have meaningful data entry in the system, it makes it difficult to accurately use on the local level where so many have starter ratings or preliminary ratings with few matches entered.

Once they get more data then it could be more widely used and accepted as a more generic rating system.

 

[sbpoolleague]

Golf has the USGA Handicap System, which is universally accepted and used at all amateur tournaments. Once your game is good enough to reach the top of the heap then all play is done without handicaps (US Amateur). But 99.9% of golfers compete in leagues and tournaments using a handicap. And handicaps are easily used in social matches.

Fargo ratings have same potential as the USGA Handicapping system. The rating system is mathematically sound. We all need to demand that our leagues get their members rated by Fargo. You do not have to USE the ratings if you don't wish. But once the entirety of the pool world adopts a common rating system, pool will naturally become stronger.

The biggest obstacle to Fargo is the APA. They have absolutely no reason to want to use it. They have their own proprietary rating system. So those of you with business sense (Mark) need to come up with a plan to get the APA on board such that they do not lose any money out of the deal.

I have terrible business sense....but in my opinion the best way to make Fargo universal is to give it away for free to all the other leagues for a while (APA/VNEA/TAP/ACS/UPA/etc). Fargo is such an excellent system that it can be refined to be the backbone of some of the other handicapping systems. You could easily transform a range of Fargo ratings into a 2 thru 9 handicapping system for the APA. And how happy would the APA players be when they realize that they do not have to count every stinking inning and defensive shot anymore!!!

 

[336Robin]

Absolutely Right

The OP got this one right in my opinion.

With the sponsorship of Pool being at an all time low, rating the players according to games played in a live rating system is the only way to find sponsors by putting the players in the position as the sponsors.

There aren't many people that are going to go heads up money matches against a professional player. A rating system gives them some small reason to want to play. Amateurs are the future of pool like it or not. You give them a reason and they will play in Pro Tournament. This is the same function as added money for a Pro Player because the cream always rises to the top.

How many pro players will play a handicapped tournament if its rich with the donor class of players? I think that answer is plenty. Everyone wins in the situation. The venue owner gets more business. The Pro Player can make more money if he prevails and the house gets somewhat of a break on having to dish out added money that they dont usually recoup. Now add in spectator seats the house can charge for and you have the recipe for something bigger, better and more often than what we do now.

Sure occasionally you will have some non Pro Players excel because they are playing better players on a regular basis and a small handicap may at times create a way for one of these players to win. This is no different than getting some weight in a gambling scenario and that happens all of the time based on information we guess at. In the Fargorate those ratings are based on what we know of games played, Big Difference.

The original poster GETS it. That is one of the advantages of Fargo Rate. It is not a handicapping system - it is a rating system.

If you want the masses involved, there has to be a FAIR and accurate method of determining the different skill levels. That is what FargoRate does.

jTaylor996; doesn't understand the FargoRate system very well.

Mark Griffin

Handicapped trnmnts based on FargoRatings.Start with local events,proceed to regional events,finish with a national event. World events could happen also.

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?
Fargorate numbers will adjust themseves as play is carried out.

Industry sponsors and "hotel/casinos" may be involved.
Outside sponsors such as Redbull,Miller,Nike,Jack Link's,are other potential partners.

What do you guys think?

 

[pocket]

<snip>The rating system is mathematically sound. We all need to demand that our leagues get their members rated by Fargo.<snip>

Exactly what I'm talking about. I play in a BCAPL, have for several seasons, likely several hundred games. Only a partial season worth has been uploaded to Fargo, despite all scores and results posted online.

Can't imagine it would be that difficult for BCAPL administration to have a button on the website for league operators to upload data to Fargorate.

 

[Chopdoc]

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?

I have heard this reasoning frequently here. But I wonder how people define "many".


Golf? OK


Other than that most handicapping is a gambling thing, no? Not a professional or even amateur sports competition thing as far as I see.


I would say handicapping happens commonly in gambling. Within the sport itself, as part of competition? Not so much/


How many players are typically shorted on the favored football team's offensive line? Ever? How many points does the favored team give up at the Superbowl? Any football game?

Golf? Oh yeah...there is that.


Chess? Sure but that is a sport. And handicapping in chess has more to do with gambling than with playing chess.


Nonetheless, perhaps it is the most promising future for tournaments. Personally, I love pool and have little interest in tournaments.

,





.

 

[alphadog]

I have heard this reasoning frequently here. But I wonder how people define "many".


Golf? OK


Other than that most handicapping is a gambling thing, no? Not a professional or even amateur sports competition thing as far as I see.




I would say handicapping happens commonly in gambling. Within the sport itself, as part of competition? Not so much/


How many players are typically shorted on the favored football team's offensive line? Ever? How many points does the favored team give up at the Superbowl? Any football game?

Golf? Oh yeah...there is that.


Chess? Sure but that is a sport. And handicapping in chess has more to do with gambling than with playing chess.


Nonetheless, perhaps it is the most promising future for tournaments. Personally, I love pool and have little interest in tournaments.

,





.

How about autoracing?

 

[sbpoolleague]

Exactly what I'm talking about. I play in a BCAPL, have for several seasons, likely several hundred games. Only a partial season worth has been uploaded to Fargo, despite all scores and results posted online.

Can't imagine it would be that difficult for BCAPL administration to have a button on the website for league operators to upload data to Fargorate.

PATIENCE MY GOOD MAN

The League Management System (LMS) is going to be rolled out for all to use very shortly. (That's what I'm told by Mike Page). Up until now there has been no easy way to get games into the Fargo system. If you are very good with computers and spreadsheets and have access to a league database then adding historical data manually into Fargo is not that difficult, but not many LO's possess the skills necessary. Nor should they.

Hopefully this LMS software will be very user friendly so that all LO's CAN use it and WILL WANT TO use it.

 

[Dimeball]

pff..Handicapping, what a joke! What's the point of winning the WPC with a handicap?! It's f-ing worthless!

I will never understand this American obsession with money being the only reason to compete. Where is your pride? What possible pride can a person take from a handicapped win? You beat Usain Bolt on a hundred meter sprint, where he has to wear an old fashioned diving suit (with the hose and the visor etc). Is that something to brag to your buddies about? Are you going to say you are the worlds best sprinter now? It's just a joke, plain and simple.

Now, if you do beat someone, while giving up a handicap, that may be a good thing for your ego. At the same time, your ego is protected if you happen to lose. I don't think this is very good for the best player either. There is a raw, competitive man-against-man nature about pool, that I find very appealing. Whenever that aspect of the game is compromised by stupid rules or handicapping, it takes away most of the joy of the game, for me. You didn't defeat that guy because of your wits and raw skill, only because you got a huge head start.

I understand the shame that some feel when they lose at this game, I feel that too. But it's part of the joy of the game, knowing the other side of the coin. The thrill is even greater, knowing the agony of defeat. In a way I think it's a very good feeling, knowing there is a higher level of player above me. It gives me hope that I too, can become better than I am now and it gives me motivation to work on my skills to reach a higher level. What possible use could it be to improve if the game is handicapped, anyway? To get better and then sandbag? That's for scum! I laugh when I read the APA threads, about the pure glee that they take winning the game on a techicality or through "handicap management". We all know what the latter means. I guess there are a lot of people who DO take pride in things like this. It makes me sad for humanity.

So, no, I don't feel very good about handicapping games at all. I do however enjoy knowing how I stack up against others, so that part of Fargorate is a good thing, even if it is flawed in some respects.

Amen brother, preach it!

 

[one stroke]

Handicapped trnmnts based on FargoRatings.Start with local events,proceed to regional events,finish with a national event. World events could happen also.

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?
Fargorate numbers will adjust themseves as play is carried out.

Industry sponsors and "hotel/casinos" may be involved.
Outside sponsors such as Redbull,Miller,Nike,Jack Link's,are other potential partners.

What do you guys think?

Well it sounds good but just where's the money going to come from , do you really think big sponsers will support it when they already have other sports that bring them far more exposure than pool could ever dream of and the money they put up for anything less than pro events is very small ,,
The fact is you need a spectator sport to get big sponsors pro pool at its best simply is not a spectator sport , never mind handicap pool

1

 

[rossaroni]

Well it sounds good but just where's the money going to come from , do you really think big sponsers will support it when they already have other sports that bring them far more exposure than pool could ever dream of and the money they put up for anything less than pro events is very small ,,
The fact is you need a spectator sport to get big sponsors pro pool at its best simply is not a spectator sport , never mind handicap pool

1

I was kind of thinking the same thing. It sounds good to throw out the names of Nike, Miller, etc...but i would think that they have absolutely no interest in pool in its current state. (And probably no interest if pool was in a 5x better situation then it is in).

 

[Lonestar_jim]

I was kind of thinking the same thing. It sounds good to throw out the names of Nike, Miller, etc...but i would think that they have absolutely no interest in pool in its current state. (And probably no interest if pool was in a 5x better situation then it is in).

Glass half (5X) empty tonight sir ?
I'm looking for sponsorship currently from Miller, Coors, Anheuser-Busch...

Hoping to hear something soon

Good luck to all of us pool players when we draw a 525 in the bracket.

 

[AtLarge]

Handicapped trnmnts based on FargoRatings.Start with local events,proceed to regional events,finish with a national event. World events could happen also.

Handicapping occurs in many sports so why not ours?
Fargorate numbers will adjust themseves as play is carried out.

Industry sponsors and "hotel/casinos" may be involved.
Outside sponsors such as Redbull,Miller,Nike,Jack Link's,are other potential partners.

What do you guys think?

If pool matches are reduced to a coin flip (by using a full handicap differential), why would good players compete?

[An event using partial handicap differentials might appeal to some.]

 

[pocket]

PATIENCE MY GOOD MAN
<snip>
Hopefully this LMS software will be very user friendly so that all LO's CAN use it and WILL WANT TO use it.

They already go to the effort of entering scores the rest should be cheese.

Can't talk about getting APA-UPA etc being the solution to universal acceptance when your own league isn't even fully adopted!

Hope this is rolled out soon. I'm a believer in its usefulness.

 

[denzilla171]

This pool hall in Thailand runs handicapped tournaments 3 times a week and they are quite popular with players of all levels. I'll be returning there in about a month or so for some more action.

http://megabreakpool.com/competitions/

Last time over I played Denis Grabe in a match, who with a Fargo rating of 785 (or A+20 in the local rating system) is not too shabby of a player. I was spotted, umm, a lot of games in a race to 16 and he beat me anyways. Even though I got my ass kicked, I still felt like I was in it with a chance. That's the beauty of handicapped tournaments, and what keeps people coming back...

 

[Lonestar_jim]

This pool hall in Thailand runs handicapped tournaments 3 times a week and they are quite popular with players of all levels. I'll be returning there in about a month or so for some more action.

http://megabreakpool.com/competitions/

Last time over I played Denis Grabe in a match, who with a Fargo rating of 785 (or A+20 in the local rating system) is not too shabby of a player. I was spotted, umm, a lot of games in a race to 16 and he beat me anyways. Even though I got my ass kicked, I still felt like I was in it with a chance. That's the beauty of handicapped tournaments, and what keeps people coming back...

Race to 16 in a tournament. It's the wave of the future.

This pool hall in Thailand runs handicapped tournaments 3 times a week and they are quite popular with players of all levels. I'll be returning there in about a month or so for some more action.

http://megabreakpool.com/competitions/

Last time over I played Denis Grabe in a match, who with a Fargo rating of 785 (or A+20 in the local rating system) is not too shabby of a player. I was spotted, umm, a lot of games in a race to 16 and he beat me anyways. Even though I got my ass kicked, I still felt like I was in it with a chance. That's the beauty of handicapped tournaments, and what keeps people coming back...

Race to 16 in a tournament. It's the wave of the future.

 

[Patrick53212]

Fargo Ratings

I am all for a rating system to designate who is statistically the best player as far as rankings go. I am all for it being used in handicaps for leagues and handicapped tournament play. I don't get caught up in the rankings...I am just focused on playing better with every match than I did prior.