An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

[justadub]

I have a whole host of thoughts rattling around my brain. I'll limit this to a few.

- Governing body is a must. Someone who both the players and promoters have to cooperate with. And eventually ( and ultimately) have to answer to.

- Start small, with a plan for growth. Throwing 500k at pool in one grand effort will be amazing for a short while, then burn out.

- Try to incorporate and accommodate the bigger and long running events that are left. DCC, SBE, Turning Stone. Dont, dont, dont, DO NOT do a Bonus Ball on them.

- Don't promise TV. Work on TV, don't talk about TV till you can get TV.

- Expect and insist on professionalism, from players and from promotersm. Including public comments in social media. Yes, everyone has the right to free speech, and no one is free from repercussions of acting stupidly in the public eye. You need to support "the brand" and if you have an issue, it needs to be expressed properly, and respectfully. If you try and launch a pro pool "tour" and try to bring pool to a higher level, you don't need the *****-fests that happens on Facebook by some of the bigger stars.

- Jay Helfert should be on the short list of people to be consulted with.

I could go on.....

This will be interesting to follow.

 

[336Robin]

Sustainable Sponsorship for a Tour

I had to think on this awhile. In order to get a sustainable model you have to have so many pieces in place but they have to be there.

1. Long term Sponsorship from some dedicated companies
2. You have to form a Player oriented organization that sells memberships to people that will give them a discount on seating into events where they can see the results of their donations/memberships.The BCA is sadly not this organization. They are a trade organization and the new one needs to be player oriented but you cannot let the players run it or run over it. It has to have wise administrative control.
3. You have to make "through contract" the players of the events be sponsor/donating member friendly and salable to the general public.You have to craft events where they mix with the people that are supporting them.
4. At your events you have to have a booth, where people buy goods/products/memberships that you profit from. This could be your sponsors products etc.
5. Profits from all ventures go back into the model to sustain events with nominal added monies and pay out organizational salaries. You can't have a lot of paid positions in administration if you are going to contain costs.

In short....People who love pool, have to love you and what you are doing. There are those people out there who want to see Pool be great again. You have to tap into the love, because its surely not a get rich quick scheme for anyone.

If you can get the players respectable of the fans, the fans able to see events, events to be player/fan friendly and profitable....things can work. You may have to have them in a warehouse but that's not as important as you have to have them and people need to have a good time. It can be done affordably in large pool rooms like Chandleys Chalk and Cue in Statesville, North Carolina. Not many like that. This venue was created for things like this but the support has not been there yet.

All this room needs is bleachers/risers brought in and the side tables moved back, streaming and its ready to go. It will handle around 900 people, it has Food Service, Dining/Dance area and a Full Bar. Its in the middle of East Coast. Its not up North nor in Florida, nor Vegas but it would be perfect for something like this. It has 31 Diamond Pro Cut Tables. Hotels are close by and affordable. The Statesville Chamber of Commerce wants the business and has pledged some support in the way of development money if something like this were to take off. It has room for vendors and it has willing owners. It has 35 to 40 APA Pool league teams that play out of it for instant paying spectators and this area would be easy for the word to spread. They have close to 3k people who watch their Facebook page. What it needs is a new plan for Pool. There are many fine ideas here but without a sustainable income plan that you control I just don't see it working. Your idea needs a steady income stream and doing events here could provide it. This venue has instant Trade Show income written all over it. The tables are already there, the place is huge. All it needs is you and an equitable deal for the owners.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I have a whole host of thoughts rattling around my brain....I'll limit this to a few, I could go on.....

Please don't..If you had bothered to read any prior posts in this thread, you would have found that every point you brought up, has already been echoed by previous respondents, (almost ver batim) at least twice!

For example---> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5691011&postcount=20

PS...Sorry justadub, you are a good guy!..Its just a pet hang up of mine, when people don't at least skim over the previous replys!

 

[JCIN]

I assume we are talking about pro pool here. I only see three possible ways.

- Pro tour funded by a large amateur league. If the APA put .50 per player per week into a pro fund you would have your tour tomorrow. They will never do this because its not in their interest to do this. So to use this model a new entity would have to first build a local league system with tens of thousands of weekly players or buy an existing league thats big enough to fund it.

- Partner with some large media outlet to create something that draws enough views for them to sell to sponsors/advertisers. The Barry Hearn model for Match Room events. The problem with this model is that Barry Hearn says it can not be done in the U.S.

- Starting small with a group of pro players who are willing to invest and buy in to a concept. Small fields with feeder events to get into those fields. A PGA Tour model on a micro scale. I have multiple proposals on this model.

I suspect anything that ever succeeds would have elements of all three of these eventually.

If the effort is contingent on the pool industry in the US matching 500K then we might as well be talking about playing the US Open on Mars. Pool in the U.S. is in bad shape.

I've literally spent years thinking about this, reading about what people much smarter than me have done and looking at how successful things were built. The UFC is one big one. They were tens of millions in debt before breaking through though. The only thing that saved them was mainstream attention through a TV show. The bull riders and skateboarders started much closer to where pool is now and the inspiration for what I think could self sustain.

I keep coming back to one thing and that is simply that pool has become a participatory bar game with a shrinking demographic of older players who won't pay much to participate and less to watch. So since no real numbers of people will watch pool the only way to build anything self sustaining is on a model built with participation at its core. If we cant get 100K league players to watch pro's then talking about mainstream is a waste of time.

Derby is the most successful thing in pro pool. There are lessons there.

I'm open to helping however I can.

 

[vjmehra]

Given that a number of top pro's are from outside the US, in order to get enough sponsors interested I'd say the first thing that needs to get done is a proper structured global tour. Pick a game, any game (probably 9-Ball), stop arguing that game x is better and just get on with it. Also frankly get Barry Hearn involved, otherwise it (probably) won't work.

If you have a successful world tour, the rest follows (look at the re-birth of snooker).

That said the other thing that I would (respectfully) suggest is that people need to look outside of the US and look how things are done elsewhere, the Eurotour is a good start and more recently the IPA tour in the UK has really taken off, I think they routinely fill over 200 entry slots for each tournament and now have sponsorship from a major bookmaker (this for a game that gets routinely criticised on this forum by some).

That said, credit where credit's due, the way the PBA tour promotes bowling is excellent, over here in the UK The sport is all but dead sadly :-(

 

[JCIN]

Given that a number of top pro's are from outside the US, in order to get enough sponsors interested I'd say the first thing that needs to get done is a proper structured global tour. Pick a game, any game (probably 9-Ball), stop arguing that game x is better and just get on with it. Also frankly get Barry Hearn involved, otherwise it (probably) won't work.

If you have a successful world tour, the rest follows (look at the re-birth of snooker).

That said the other thing that I would (respectfully) suggest is that people need to look outside of the US and look how things are done elsewhere, the Eurotour is a good start and more recently the IPA tour in the U.K. Has really taken off, I think they routinely fill over 200 entry slots for each tournament and now have sponsorship from a major bookmaker (this for a game that gets routinely criticised on this forum by some).

That said, credit where credit's due, the way the PBA tour promotes bowling is excellent, over here in the U.K. The sport is all but dead sadly :-(

The eurotour wouldn't last a year here. Its an even worse financial proposition for players than what the U.S. has. The player culture in Europe is completely different than here. Which is almost certainly a good thing.

 

[justadub]

Please don't..If you had bothered to read any prior posts in this thread, you would have found that every point you brought up, has already been echoed by previous respondents, (almost ver batim) at least twice!

For example---> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5691011&postcount=20

PS...Sorry justadub, you are a good guy!..Its just a pet hang up of mine, when people don't at least skim over the previous replys!

Sorry. I feel that its ok for me to highlight and reinforce what I feel is important. As opposed to.... "what he said". That wouldnt be much of a forum.

But I shall not "go on" further.

Edit **** other than to add JCIN to that list of people to consult with.

 

[vjmehra]

The eurotour wouldn't last a year here. Its an even worse financial proposition for players than what the U.S. has. The player culture in Europe is completely different than here. Which is almost certainly a good thing.

Totally agree the prize money isn't enough on its own, but it allows players to compete on a structured tour against high level opponents with a proper calendar known well in advance.

It's a start and allows the players to test themselves against the best in a Europe, earn mosconi cup points and also provides sponsors some interest. As you say I can't believe any players could use it as their primary source of income.

 

[SilverCue]

This is the thread I meant:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5691003#post5691003

So far, this is the most on track post I have read in this thread.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[JAM]

I think it is very important to choose wisely who are the people to bring on board, whether as consultants or as employees.

Some entities in the pool world enjoy a sterling reputation and could offer valuable insight, but there are, sad to say, some whose opinions may not complement a brand-new concept and contribute to a positive outcome because of longstanding prejudgments. Optimism and ability to try something new is good. Stereotyping pool players in a negative manner, as is so often the case with some pool peeps, is not good. There are many folks who are hardworking, however, and not looking for a free ride. And that's what you need at the genesis. Nobody is going to get rich quick at this stage of the game. It's a long road to the top of the mountain, and there will be hurdles and stop signs along the way. It takes a special kind of person to travel that kind of a road to a successful outcome.

In this regard, I think an international cadre of consultants would be a good step in the right direction. Philippines, China, Japan, United States, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, Europe, Russia, Latin/Central America, Caribbean, et cetera, they all have a different pool culture. Some are pool purists; others embrace action. There's a tension and conflict here which needs to be ironed out. Uniting all of these fronts is key when it comes to game selection, rules, logistics.

I like Deno Andrews as somebody who has wisdom about international pool. Jay Helfert, of course, is a natural fit. Mark Griffin would be ideal, but I know he's got a lot of irons in the fire right now with his new pool room. Ted Lerner would have valuable insight on the ASEAN pool scene. Jim Wych from Canada would be a nice choice. Ronnie O'Sullivan, if he's not too busy, would be cool to offer a player's point of view, i.e., traveling, rules, equipment. I also would really like to see Ralph Eckert on the team. He would add a great deal of wisdom to this endeavor. I also like Mary Kenniston because of her experience as a player and as a room owner. She would be great, and she's always upbeat and positive with her thoughts, even if she disagrees with something. You need that. No Negative Nellies allowed!

Considering how pool promoters are raked through the coals because of differing opinions, maybe they should remain a silent entity and have a mouthpiece disseminating the latest updates. I just would not want to see this person become discouraged due to differing thoughts, which can become contentious, before the new organization gets off the ground. Wizard of Oz comes to mind.

 

[Johnnyt]

I would think the first thing would be for a few top players and a few 2nd and 3rd tier players to get together and head up an organization. After the moneyman does his homework, talking with Hearn and others, he should get together with the players. The other 500k plus the money to sustain a tour has to come from sponsorship and or TV. After getting an organization, getting internet betting on pool IMO would get pool on TV. Johnnyt

 

[Island Drive]

With that being said, I have been approached by a party who is interested in the future of pool in the US. He has expressed a willingness to come to the table with up to $500K, if the industry can match his contribution.

APPROACHED BY A PARTY....corporation??
HE HAS EXPRESSED WILLINGNESS....is it one person?

I think he is talking about something similar to the WPBA when it was in it’s prime, but I also think he wants to build on that initial concept to involve all aspects of pool in the US today.
THE WPBA WAS NEVER TRULY A SUCCESS ON TV, AND WHATEVER YOU DO IT HAS TO BE VIDEO OF SOME TYPE

I believe he would want to form a committee
PUT ME DOWN.

that would advise him on various aspects of this endeavor. This committee would include knowledgable people from inside and outside of the pool world, and would include player input.

He understands that if this endeavor is going to accomplish anything, it has to be self sustaining and he is interested in different ways that might be possible. Sponsorship, streaming and other methods come to mind right away.
CO/MINGLING OF EMAIL LISTS IS A GIVEN.

While I realize that there are a LOT of naysayers on this forum, there are also a LOT of people who truly care about the game and I think they would like to see something like this really happen. Let’s talk about what something like this might look like and how it might work.

With all of the talk about the WPA requiring players to become members, I wonder if now might be the right time for something like this to happen.
ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP IS A NO BRAINER.

..........

 

[decent dennis]

Maybe the most important thing. Get pool into the schools!!

Start off small with high schools, and eventually graduate to colleges and then universities.

The sooner we get the youth involved the better.

Have you ever seen the eyes of a child following the pretty colored balls rolling on a pool table. This is where it begins. Clinics are a good thing, start them young.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I assume we are talking about pro pool here. I only see three possible ways.

- Pro tour funded by a large amateur league. If the APA put .50 per player per week into a pro fund you would have your tour tomorrow. They will never do this because its not in their interest to do this. So to use this model a new entity would have to first build a local league system with tens of thousands of weekly players or buy an existing league thats big enough to fund it.

- Partner with some large media outlet to create something that draws enough views for them to sell to sponsors/advertisers. The Barry Hearn model for Match Room events. The problem with this model is that Barry Hearn says it can not be done in the U.S.

- Starting small with a group of pro players who are willing to invest and buy in to a concept. Small fields with feeder events to get into those fields. A PGA Tour model on a micro scale. I have multiple proposals on this model.

I suspect anything that ever succeeds would have elements of all three of these eventually.

If the effort is contingent on the pool industry in the US matching 500K then we might as well be talking about playing the US Open on Mars. Pool in the U.S. is in bad shape.

I've literally spent years thinking about this, reading about what people much smarter than me have done and looking at how successful things were built. The UFC is one big one. They were tens of millions in debt before breaking through though. The only thing that saved them was mainstream attention through a TV show. The bull riders and skateboarders started much closer to where pool is now and the inspiration for what I think could self sustain.

I keep coming back to one thing and that is simply that pool has become a participatory bar game with a shrinking demographic of older players who won't pay much to participate and less to watch. So since no real numbers of people will watch pool the only way to build anything self sustaining is on a model built with participation at its core. If we cant get 100K league players to watch pro's then talking about mainstream is a waste of time.

Derby is the most successful thing in pro pool. There are lessons there.

I'm open to helping however I can.

Justin,

I always enjoy your insight and comments, on the state of the pool world. You surely have the knowledge, given your time and efforts with TAR..I miss the TAR match-ups, and I always tried to be supportive, as you always tried to put on a good show. I can only assume that your involvement in TAR, was more a 'labor of love' for you, than a way to make a decent living. I'm sure you must have had your share of bad days, otherwise you'd probably still be doing it!

It is a shame, that the interest is just not there, in funding a reasonable pro tour. I do have a few questions for you, that I hope you can elaborate on. First and foremost, in your opinion, why does a well respected promoter like Mark Griffin for instance, not try to act on some of your ideas, and put them in place? Seems as though a .50 surcharge (per player) would be an easy thing to implement. Maybe not, huh?

Secondly, why do you think Barry Hearn is convinced the U.S. would not be receptive of anything that would benefit pool in general? Why would he think his success in snooker, (and his many other gaming ventures) would not work in this country? Is it due to the shrinking demographic you refer too? Is not the league situation in the U.S., still fairly robust. It certainly appears to me that it is.

And lastly, your last statement.."The DCC is the most successful thing in pro pool, there are lessons there"! Could you please explain what you meant by.."there are lessons there"? Thanks in advance, for your time in responding.

Dick

 

[Slasher]

Matchroom had to change the focus to Asia and EU to grow the game to where it is now, the home market in the UK had all but disappeared.

 

[Island Drive]

What is the ''target market'' for the entrepreneur?

 

[boogeyman]

In my opinion, what Kevin Trudeau had for the IPT was a great idea. That type of idea will make pool get to the next level.

Tap, tap, tap!

I agree. Whatever one thinks about Trudeau is beside the point.
He made a great push for American pool.
The IPT was indeed great. It brought out tons of good players to the rooms.
Some of which I had never seen before.

IF one can get enough money and co-opt the IPT template, that could be a go-to.
Why reinvent the wheel?

Just be cognizant of how the Asian market is doing things as well.
It's important to be mindful of what things work and what things no longer work in today's world industry.
:thumbup:

 

[DaveM]

I think the .50 per player might be hard to administrate. What about tagging an optional $5 to be added to the yearly APA membership to support the Pro tour. Give APA a cut for administrating and give those who opt in a little something of value, card etc.

 

[dardusm]

I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. There are already enough events presently to create a quasi tour. There are a lot of good ideas already presented in this thread. You need to have a product to promote. Use the already existing fairly successful events such as Derby City, US Open, BCAPL pro events, SBE pro event, Turning Stone Events, Seminole event, Dragon Promotion events, etc.

You need an overall organization such WPA except for North America. You could call it the North American Pro Billiards Tour or NAPBT (which also could be a member of the WPA to help create unity internationally). This is the trickiest part because this organization would need to be able to work with the present promoters to actually promote the sport on the whole and not just the micro view of the game. The board for this organization could be made up of industry professionals, players, outside business people (fans of the game that can contribute - attorney's, etc.) that could be voted on. They could put together some parameters for points list, player conduct, dress code, streaming guidelines, and other admin functions. The key is to make this organization there to help the sport including the promoters and players. Keep the sanctioning fee low and membership fee's low. Keep the demands on promoters to a minimum and those demands be common sense that helps everyone involved.

Now you have a product that can be promoted. Promote the players. Develop a media kit for each event with a program with player bio's and passes for the press. Let the local press know when there is a tournament going on. If they show up, then that's the great pub for the event. This product (tour) now can look for additional sponsorship within and outside the industry.

As others stated, promote the game to the kids. This is where turning the game to a sport can impact the future. Concentrate on the competition and tournament play. The match (gambling) has a place but not when it comes to promoting the sport to schools and children.

New money such as what your potential investor is willing to invest, could go towards running a new event with the ultimate goal of having a self sustaining and growing professional tour. I could envision using the pro golf model where individual companies could sponsor a stop. The Buick Open or the APA Pro Championships or the Side Pockets Classic.

Just some idea's.

 

[BRussell]

• Focus on the investors and promoters making money, not the players. Only if investors and promoters make money will the players make money. Demanding added money that comes from nowhere so the players have good prize purses is the biggest reason that pro pool has failed over the years, IMO.

• Start out humble and honest, and build for the long-term. Don't start talking about multi-million dollar prize money in the first year. Have modest but honest prize money. If players complain about it not being enough to warrant the cost of the trip and the hotel etc., tell them you understand and they don't have to come and the huge prize money isn't available yet but you hope it grows in the future.

• Make rules for spectators, not players. Whenever pros start talking about taking luck out of the game (e.g., 9 on the break gets spotted), ask whether it makes the game more or less interesting to watch, rather than just makes pros more likely to win. Use a 30-sec. shot clock.