To Concede Or Not To Concede - That Is The Question

[RoadHustler]

I play pool

I always want to finish the rack. People often concede balls to me in league and I wish they wouldn't . I love the process of getting shape on a ball for the ball after that it feels great when it works. For me a big part of my reward is pocketing the next ball, I know they are just being nice but I want to shoot it even if I miss occasionally.

Because of that I never concede a ball to anyone. Occasionally they glance over at me and I just smile and let them keep shooting. If I tried to explain they would think I was crazy.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Here is the master's final of our recent western BCA.

Marvin Holmes is about to upset Dan Louie and win the tournament.

https://vimeo.com/189891825#t=1h22m15s

JC

That, JC, was brutal. :help: :banghead: :thud:

And it underscores perfectly the reason for this thread.

This is the kind of shot that we routinely see conceded.

You just never know.

And obviously, this was a meaningful match.

best,
brian kc

 

[gregcantrall]

Here is the master's final of our recent western BCA.

Marvin Holmes is about to upset Dan Louie and win the tournament.

https://vimeo.com/189891825#t=1h22m15s

JC

Thank you! I was just getting ready to go looking for that link to post. I was playing when that match was being played. I did not see it live but heard about it. Once the match was posted I went to have a look. Just goes to show what can happen even with Master / Grand Master players.

P.S. Notice that Marvin concedes the nine ball to Dan after the scratch.

 

[JC]

Once upon a time, Hale Irwin missed a 1 inch putt at the British Open and lost the event by one shot .... yet in the World Match Play Golf Championship finals, with 2,000,000 riding on the outcome, short putts are regularly conceded. Short putts are routinely conceded at the Ryder Cup, too.

Conceding short putts in match play is good sportsmanship, and it reflects positively on pro golf. Pool and good sportsmanship don't go together nearly as often, so in pool it makes sense that there are fewer concessions even where allowed. Disallowing concessions, and penalizing those who violate, really makes pool look ridiculous at times.

If a miss is more than a 30/1 shot in either golf or pool, a concession seems reasonable to me. Keeping the match moving and showcasing good sportsmanship are both good for the fans and for the sport.

Keeping the match moving? How long does a 1 inch putt take? Do fans get bored?

Nine ball isn't called 8 ball for a reason. Cuz it ain't over until it falls in legally.

JC

 

[JC]

Thank you! I was just getting ready to go looking for that link to post. I was playing when that match was being played. I did not see it live but heard about it. Once the match was posted I went to have a look. Just goes to show what can happen even with Master / Grand Master players.

And then how the second set ended still makes my heart hurt for Marvin. I think Danny missed that 5 ball in the last game semi intentionally just to let Marvin have his moment. By then it was too late. Good thing it's "just" a game right?

For those that don't know, Marvin was in the chair after defeating some very good players including Stan Tourangeau and Dan Louie to get there.

Here's the conclusion of set 2

https://vimeo.com/189891826#t=1h8m15s

https://vimeo.com/189891826#t=1h12m2s

JC

 

[acousticsguru]

I've sometimes conceded game or match balls, but in principle agree with something, if memory serves, Bill Incardona once said doing commentary on a video, which is that there's no use making the game seem easier than it is to the average television viewer to whom no shot whatsoever is a gimmie, and also, that people want to see the winning moment, not a game, match or title being "handed over" as if it weren't worth a thing.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[gregcantrall]

And then how the second set ended still makes my heart hurt for Marvin. I think Danny missed that 5 ball in the last game semi intentionally just to let Marvin have his moment. By then it was too late. Good thing it's "just" a game right?

For those that don't know, Marvin was in the chair after defeating some very good players including Stan Tourangeau and Dan Louie to get there.

Here's the conclusion of set 2

https://vimeo.com/189891826#t=1h8m15s

https://vimeo.com/189891826#t=1h12m2s

JC

I heard the match was decided by a hill/hill scratch. I assumed it was the second set so went to that final game first. I have not had time to watch either set in entirety yet. I did notice that Dan was not shooting like the Dan Louie of the past. Similar to watching Efren now compared to then. I am just now starting to watch from the beginning of the first set.

I had the opportunity to watch Dan beat Jose Parica 9-8 twice at the Caesar's Tahoe tournament in 1984. Jose had just come to the US and was all the talk of how he had just beaten Earl out of a lot of money in Texas. I had twice seen Dan trailing 6-0 in the finals of a race to 7 bar box tournament(The White Spot in Fife, WA), win the match both times. At the Sands Reno tournament in 1985 I watched Dan go hill/hill with Strickland. They both missed easy 6 balls in the case game. Earl ended up winning. After the match Dan looked at me and said, "You know Greg, I just got nervous." To which I replied, "I can identify with that."

A story Re conceding balls: In the same bi-annual bar box tournament I reference in the previous paragraph. I was in a match with 4 of us left on the winners side. My opponent(Jimmy) was a player I knew and played against quite often. On one occasion he got angry at me for not giving him a 9 ball that he missed. He looked at me and said, "I thought that was a gimme Greg." I replied, "You must be playing a different game. I am playing 9 ball." In all of that play we were pretty much dead even. Our match played out that way as well. He would win one game and I would tie it. Neither one of us put two racks together. When I won the game that tied it 6-6, hill/hill. I broke and ran to the nine which I missed. Did Not choke, just missed. I was not sure why I missed so I was tilted. Jimmy had already quit mentally and missed an easy 9. On his miss the 9 ended on the end rail 4 to 6 inches out of the pocket and the cue ball mid table about the head string. Me being tilted could only see and think scratch. Before I could get to the table, he raked the 9 into the hole with his cue.

That win put me playing for the point in a very prestigious bar box tourney. Being tilted over not knowing why I missed that case nine, I proceed to hand my opponent game after game running to the 7 and or 8 and missing. When the score was 6-2, I had the Tin Cup pep talk with myself. It went something like this; "Don't worry about looking ridiculous, you have already accomplished that. You do not know who this guy is. Maybe he has never been in this situation with this large an audience. So, how about if you don't give him this last game and see what happens?" What happened was, I won 5 in a row and the point. Had Jimmy not raked in that 9 ball I most likely would have ended up finishing 5th-6th, which would have still been a best ever for me in that large a tournament.

 

[JC]

I heard the match was decided by a hill/hill scratch. I assumed it was the second set so went to that final game first. I have not had time to watch either set in entirety yet. I did notice that Dan was not shooting like the Dan Louie of the past. Similar to watching Efren now compared to then. I am just now starting to watch from the beginning of the first set.

I had the opportunity to watch Dan beat Jose Parica 9-8 twice at the Caesar's Tahoe tournament in 1984. Jose had just come to the US and was all the talk of how he had just beaten Earl out of a lot of money in Texas. I had twice seen Dan trailing 6-0 in the finals of a race to 7 bar box tournament(The White Spot in Fife, WA), win the match both times. At the Sands Reno tournament in 1985 I watched Dan go hill/hill with Strickland. They both missed easy 6 balls in the case game. Earl ended up winning. After the match Dan looked at me and said, "You know Greg, I just got nervous." To which I replied, "I can identify with that."

A story Re conceding balls: In the same bi-annual bar box tournament I reference in the previous paragraph. I was in a match with 4 of us left on the winners side. My opponent(Jimmy) was a player I knew and played against quite often. On one occasion he got angry at me for not giving him a 9 ball that he missed. He looked at me and said, "I thought that was a gimme Greg." I replied, "You must be playing a different game. I am playing 9 ball." In all of that play we were pretty much dead even. Our match played out that way as well. He would win one game and I would tie it. Neither one of us put two racks together. When I won the game that tied it 6-6, hill/hill. I broke and ran to the nine which I missed. Did Not choke, just missed. I was not sure why I missed so I was tilted. Jimmy had already quit mentally and missed an easy 9. On his miss the 9 ended on the end rail 4 to 6 inches out of the pocket and the cue ball mid table about the head string. Me being tilted could only see and think scratch. Before I could get to the table, he raked the 9 into the hole with his cue.

That win put me playing for the point in a very prestigious bar box tourney. Being tilted over not knowing why I missed that case nine, I proceed to hand my opponent game after game running to the 7 and or 8 and missing. When the score was 6-2, I had the Tin Cup pep talk with myself. It went something like this; "Don't worry about looking ridiculous, you have already accomplished that. You do not know who this guy is. Maybe he has never been in this situation with this large an audience. So, how about if you don't give him this last game and see what happens?" What happened was, I won 5 in a row and the point. Had Jimmy not raked in that 9 ball I most likely would have ended up finishing 5th-6th, which would have still been a best ever for me in that large a tournament.

That's why I always step back from the table and take my time on the "gimmes" no matter how well I've been playing.

To give my frustrated opponent a chance to concede before I have a chance to screw it up.

JC

 

[Carolina_Giant]

My first season ever of playing league was rough. I would usually only win 2 games a night, and often lose at least two games because of errors that were just nerve induced.

My second season of league I greatly improved. It came down to my team and another team being only ten points apart the final week of the session, having to play each other the final week of the session, being tied where we each had to win 13 games in that match, and I went into the last match of the night with the teams tied at 12 a piece. It may have just been a local league, but you want to talk about pressure. After being forced into a difficult bank shot and landing decently on the eight ball with our season on the line, my opponent didn't concede and I sunk the shot.

That night changed the way I felt about conceding a game or match forever. Being able to knock in that last ball brought closure for me as a player. It demonstrated I could finish what I started, and was the resounding signal that I had arrived. If my opponent had conceded that ball, I would likely have never experienced that feeling. Hence I never concede a shot. It isn't because I want to put all the pressure on my opponent, but because I don't want to deny them the opportunity to feel that sense of relief and joy of hitting that last ball in to complete their run.

 

[gregcantrall]

It isn't because I want to put all the pressure on my opponent, but because I don't want to deny them the opportunity to feel that sense of relief and joy of hitting that last ball in to complete their run.

That is respect!:thumbup:

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

My first season ever of playing league was rough. I would usually only win 2 games a night, and often lose at least two games because of errors that were just nerve induced.

My second season of league I greatly improved. It came down to my team and another team being only ten points apart the final week of the session, having to play each other the final week of the session, being tied where we each had to win 13 games in that match, and I went into the last match of the night with the teams tied at 12 a piece. It may have just been a local league, but you want to talk about pressure. After being forced into a difficult bank shot and landing decently on the eight ball with our season on the line, my opponent didn't concede and I sunk the shot.

That night changed the way I felt about conceding a game or match forever. Being able to knock in that last ball brought closure for me as a player. It demonstrated I could finish what I started, and was the resounding signal that I had arrived. If my opponent had conceded that ball, I would likely have never experienced that feeling. Hence I never concede a shot. It isn't because I want to put all the pressure on my opponent, but because I don't want to deny them the opportunity to feel that sense of relief and joy of hitting that last ball in to complete their run.

you really should be posting here more often. :thumbup:

 

[SilverDevil]

In my opinion, it is not the spirit of the game or any competition. No one would stop Duke from shooting the final free throw tied 99-99 with .3 to go. You don't deserve it until you make the final ball. Also statistically any shot on the final ball is less likely to be made then the equivalent shot at any other point in the match.

I might be alone on this but does anyone else get conflicted by receiving a concession on the final ball? I want to shoot it. I am happy to take the win but I want to sink that last ball.

 

[SilverDevil]

My first season ever of playing league was rough. I would usually only win 2 games a night, and often lose at least two games because of errors that were just nerve induced.

My second season of league I greatly improved. It came down to my team and another team being only ten points apart the final week of the session, having to play each other the final week of the session, being tied where we each had to win 13 games in that match, and I went into the last match of the night with the teams tied at 12 a piece. It may have just been a local league, but you want to talk about pressure. After being forced into a difficult bank shot and landing decently on the eight ball with our season on the line, my opponent didn't concede and I sunk the shot.

That night changed the way I felt about conceding a game or match forever. Being able to knock in that last ball brought closure for me as a player. It demonstrated I could finish what I started, and was the resounding signal that I had arrived. If my opponent had conceded that ball, I would likely have never experienced that feeling. Hence I never concede a shot. It isn't because I want to put all the pressure on my opponent, but because I don't want to deny them the opportunity to feel that sense of relief and joy of hitting that last ball in to complete their run.

I agree. Well said.

 

[JoeyA]

That is a real TEAR-JERKER. I'm sure my buddy Dan didn't take any pride in that win.

JoeyA

Here is the master's final of our recent western BCA.

Marvin Holmes is about to upset Dan Louie and win the tournament.

https://vimeo.com/189891825#t=1h22m15s

JC

 

[JoeyA]

I've enjoyed most of Billy's perspectives but especially this one.

The winning game is like the first slice of a wedding cake and should be enjoyed to its maximum for all to appreciate.

JoeyA

I've sometimes conceded game or match balls, but in principle agree with something, if memory serves, Bill Incardona once said doing commentary on a video, which is that there's no use making the game seem easier than it is to the average television viewer to whom no shot whatsoever is a gimmie, and also, that people want to see the winning moment, not a game, match or title being "handed over" as if it weren't worth a thing.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[pocketsplitter]

Maybe I am the idiot but I would concede the ball. If I win because he misses, I really don't feel like I won the match.

But referencing a post above, you wouldn't happily take the 5k and also cry a bit for the snapped SW?


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[DelawareDogs]

Conceding the ball is sharking. I've seen guys concede balls, then in the same match not concede balls. Same shot or easier.... They play games with it.

Plus, shit turns around so quickly. Make them shoot it, they miss, you snap a 9 ball, then a 2-9 combo, and a break in run and you are in any match.

Everyone chokes a shot here and there, you never know when it will happen, so make them shoot......

Everyone need to look no further than the Chip/Hennessey match on the truck show. Ball concession in this match (whether Chip meant to or not) resulted in getting the arm cold. Henny knew it was happening and could feel it coming IMO, and was frustrated that Chip was conceding -- at some times -- five plus balls.

Here you go.

 

[mvp]

Don't anyone take this wrong, but if I'm playing an APA 5, he is shooting everything. Simply because he is subject to miss anything at anytime.

Now, with an upper level player, if he is shooting the duck 9, it all depends. depends on the score, how much I respect the guy, where his head is at, and probably a few other factors. That said, I have no problem conceding a gimmie simply because it really means that if he is shooting the 9, I already lost that game a while back. The biggest reason I would give it to him is out of respect.

What Neil said! I wouldn't concede to some apa 7's, but a 5 may blow up at any moment! For me score, prize, investment, time of night, opponent, and most of all RESPECT for shooter all comes into play when deciding on conceding.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

What Neil said! I wouldn't concede to some apa 7's, but a 5 may blow up at any moment! For me score, prize, investment, time of night, opponent, and most of all RESPECT for shooter all comes into play when deciding on conceding.

I think I did a poor job of wording the op by including "an APA 5" or APA anything for that matter.

Sorry about that as it served no purpose, it just provided a little confusion.

The more important point in the scenario was that it was a 95% make-able shot (regardless of shooters skill level).

best,
brian kc

 

[Maniac]

I concede the last ball every now and then. Like others have posted, it depends on who I'm playing, how well I know and like them, what kind of attitude they're showing on any given night, or if I KNOW that person will concede to me.

FTR, if anyone concedes the last ball (or two) to me, I cannot retrieve the balls out of the pockets fast enough, before he changes his mind. :grin:

Here's why I quit conceding to MOST people: Local 8-ball tournament. BCAPL rules. I was on the 8-ball with the 95% possibility of success in play. If I made it I was in the final. I had my stick in my closed bridge hand as I went to lay the hand on the table for the shot, and for some crazy reason I cannot explain to this day, the cue stick fell out of my fingers on the way down and the tip struck the cue ball. Guess who advanced to the final??? Yep....not me.

Goes to show you Forrest Gump nailed it when he said...Sh*t Happens.

Maniac