To spin or not to spin?

Kevin3824 said:
I have watched a a series of videos lately that promotes using center ball (without right or left) for positioning at first then adding right and left afterwards to be used only rarely in 8 and 9 ball. It indicates most players tend to use spin on most every shot and that is why they plateau. It is their lack of understanding of natural ball positioning that eventually stops them from improving. At least that is how I interpreted it. I would like to know what the others on here for the most part think of that and if they play spin on most of their shots or not.
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To avoid confusion, it would be best to differentiate between "center ball" and hitting on the vertical axis of the cue ball. Center ball is a specific point where the vertical and horizontal axes intersect, and is rarely the the correct point to aim at. On the other hand, most shots can be played by cuing on or very near the vertical axis of the cue ball, using different speed or draw/follow to modify the path of the cue ball and get shape on the next shot.
 
I would suggest to any intermediate level player to experiment with center-ball from time to time. Here's why.

The spin that is "needed" to execute a pattern is often much less than some people might think. If you are hitting everything with a tip of English you are probably over-spinning the ball, which can be a source of inconsistency.

When you hit center ball you need to have better fundamentals (speed control, knowledge of the angles, and good patterns) because you are removing the option of spinning yourself out of a bad situation that you got yourself into in the first place. Playing center ball forces you to pay more attention to speed, patterns, etc... which will improve your game in the long run.

I'm not advocating playing center ball all the time. You need to use the spin appropriate for the shot you are planning. What I do strongly believe is that a lot of us unnecessarily over-spin the ball, which leads to mistakes and inconsistency.

So I like to do pattern drills with just center ball from time to time, so that I develop a good fundamental understanding of speed, angles and patterns. And when I do apply English, I have a better understanding of what effect it's going to have on the natural path of the CB.

(And when I say "center ball" I'm referring to the vertical axis. Mostly just stun and roll.)

Imho.
 
book collector said:
I second that.
I've known a lot of cueball twirlers that just zing around the table, as soon as they are under too much pressure , they get a little tentative, and pretty soon, they are out of line every other shot..
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When i get out it looks tuff. That is true.
:embarrassed2:
I am the best pool payer on my street though.
 
Repetitive but message understood

MuchoBurrito said:
I would suggest to any intermediate level player to experiment with center-ball from time to time. Here's why.

The spin that is "needed" to execute a pattern is often much less than some people might think. If you are hitting everything with a tip of English you are probably over-spinning the ball, which can be a source of inconsistency.

When you hit center ball you need to have better fundamentals (speed control, knowledge of the angles, and good patterns) because you are removing the option of spinning yourself out of a bad situation that you got yourself into in the first place. Playing center ball forces you to pay more attention to speed, patterns, etc... which will improve your game in the long run.

I'm not advocating playing center ball all the time. You need to use the spin appropriate for the shot you are planning. What I do strongly believe is that a lot of us unnecessarily over-spin the ball, which leads to mistakes and inconsistency.

So I like to do pattern drills with just center ball from time to time, so that I develop a good fundamental understanding of speed, angles and patterns. And when I do apply English, I have a better understanding of what effect it's going to have on the natural path of the CB.

(And when I say "center ball" I'm referring to the vertical axis. Mostly just stun and roll.)

Imho.
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You are correct! I thought my single sentence or paragraph would summarize this point, but I guess some need clarification. :rolleyes:
 
I must be missing something here. Playing rotation on 9 foot tables, you better be able to spin the ball. What do you do when the object ball is high up on the long rail and your next ball is down on the bottom rail? Just spinning the ball is one thing. Controlling the amount of spin and distance is totally another thing and requires skill. Most times center ball won't get you where you need to go in rotation.
 
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Confused?

philly said:
I must be missing something here. Playing rotation on 9 foot tables, you better be able to spin the ball. What do you do when the object ball is high up on the long rail and your next ball is down on the bottom rail? Just spinning the ball is one thing. Controlling the amount of spin and distance is totally another thing and requires skill. Most times center ball won't get you where you need to go in rotation.
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Please read the threads again and you will understand our point.
 
I am not positive, but I think the OP is talking about this vid (start at 3:10, and listen to what he is saying for a few minutes).

Also just to clarify, IMHO he is saying to do some drills without it and then to go back to it, not to not use it.

https://youtu.be/qzjousgGLjU?t=190
 
It is impossible. The wording was such that mutually exclusive choices were presented.
..
ENGLISH! said:
Impossible is a strong word.

I would just interject that it might take an extreme amount of draw or follow to accomplish what a small amount of side spin can get done...

So... then there is the amount of Stroke necessary for such & will one hit the center axis with THAT Amount of Stroke or not & THEN get unwanted & unplanned for side spin.

Just some food for thought.
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I think it is a good idea to approach your practice play early on in your development with a plan of playing nothing but center ball, so you have to learn in depth what the CB path is, and focus on where you need to get for your next shot by just using the correct angle and the CB path. You then only have to use spin if you get out of line, or when you come to the table after an opponents miss, and it is needed. That will definitely up your ball potting percentage, and will make the addition of spin much more effective when needed.
 
I know it ruffles posters' proverbial feathers when it's mentioned that this question is asked about 6 times a year..., but my goodness, this topic is discussed about 6 times a year!!!

The same odd statements are made, the same "helpful" clarification are made, and when reality reporting is written, it doesn't change anyone's mind.

My point of view: the use of english and spin makes this game easier. The amount of times english is "necessary" is a pretty high number. BB says, "80%." I think that's about right. There are some standard "bread and butter" shots of 9-ball and rotation that you play with english, period. It would actually be silly and detrimental to *not* play these bread and butter shots with english.

Now my good friend Neil. F. says that Varner/Hall do/did the vertical centerball better than anyone he's seen, yet I've watched these two with the specific intent of seeing what they used for english. Result? Gobs. They use more gobs of english than any amateur. Frickin' gobs. So, I'm not sure what my buddy Neil is saying, so maybe he and I can discuss over drinks and tacos.

Ironicaly, it was Varner (Varner on 8-ball) and Hall (Tuck and Roll) that I ever first heard of the concept of these "bread and butter" position shots from the previous paragraph.


Freddie
 
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If someone held two cues, and shot a cue ball hitting the same extreme left and right and the same moment on the cue ball, what would the cue ball do?
 
Robbing the Bank Shot! ---Bank Book-$2.99!

objekt404 said:
Just picked up "Robbing The Bank Shot" off the Google Play bookstore. We shall see...
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Robbing the Bank Shot doesnt have the side spin information in it but it has some good passbank and banking information.
 
If you can play position, you don't need spin!

I think the need for spin can be minimized if you pay attention to what you are doing and leave yourself the proper, natural angles.

There is no way to get around using spin on some shots, but I think the average player uses way more than what is needed. I think that is the reason they are using it in the first place...they keep getting out of line.

There are people who play at top levels that advocate spinning the ball a lot (Earl comes to mind), but not everyone can maintain control and consistency when they are hitting all over the cue ball.

The best, most consistent, players I've ever seen use very little, if any, spin on the majority of their shots.

If you watch the Taiwanese pros, you will see that they keep things kind of basic and simple.

I play my best when I'm keeping it "simple". That doesn't mean I'm not using spin. It means I'm using spin only to the degree necessary. I try to keep angles that allow me to stay towards the vertical axis and I try to keep angles that allow me to hit inside the cue ball. I prefer coming off rails with no added spin, unless I have to change the angle a lot in order to get position or avoid other balls on the table.
 
Wokring on basics here. As an APA 3 I find myself in more trouble "not" playing safe when I should (ie. running 5 or 6) & leaving the other with no traffic. Learning to play safe off banks is worth the $3 (bought the othe cheap one too, need something to read while on the hole).

336Robin said:
Robbing the Bank Shot doesnt have the side spin information in it but it has some good passbank and banking information.
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I love to spin the ball. I've noticed, however, that whenever I get into a slump the best cure is to go back to vertical center only for a few days and then gradually bring sidespin into it.

I think I get a little too confident spinning the ball and start missing shots. Going back to vertical center gets me making balls again. Then as I gain confidence I spin more and more until...another slump.
 
Kevin3824 said:
I have watched a a series of videos lately that promotes using center ball (without right or left) for positioning at first then adding right and left afterwards to be used only rarely in 8 and 9 ball. It indicates most players tend to use spin on most every shot and that is why they plateau. It is their lack of understanding of natural ball positioning that eventually stops them from improving. At least that is how I interpreted it. I would like to know what the others on here for the most part think of that and if they play spin on most of their shots or not.
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In my opinion, this sort of thinking is far away from top level pool. You think good pros are saying to themselves "well, I could do this route...but damn that requires english, so I better play this more conservative route.". Probably not. I am just an "A" level player, and I probably use left or right on almost every single shot. I don't think of the shot as consisting of a verticle axis variable, a horizontal axis, etc...to me it is all one thing...commanding the cue ball to do my will. (that's the goal anyway sometimes its so hard!) I think from day one you should spin the S*&T out of your cueball and become comfortable at it before you learn that it is "hard" or "adds difficulty aiming". Just like babies, newbies don't know what they don't know, and really don't get what is "hard" and what is easy. I got a great piece of advice early in my pool career: "learn the maximums. Find out the MOST you can possibly do on a shot. Dial in the max. Then learn to taper it down to what is necessary." As a consequence, I have a fairly big stroke, I am comfortable doing big monster shots. I of course do the least I need for shape. But when an opportunity comes up to put down a big stroke with plenty of spin, this doesn't fill me with fear.

If you watch the pros and really understand what they are doing, they are spinning the ball on nearly every shot. Not a ton, but just little bits to dial in the route to perfection.

Generally speaking, the advice to "first learn the vertical axis of the ball before venturing out into left and right english" is misguided, and a sure recipe to craft a life long C player. (maybe overstating it here lol) When you're learning, go nuts on the ball. See what the real scope of options are and learn them ALL. Learn to stroke balls in with plenty of english. Do this early, and in a few years you will be miles ahead of the game.

Your mileage may vary, and in my humble opinion of course.

And I don't mean to say you can't play bad ass pool using only verticle axis. But you have to learn all the shots. make sure I hit where I need to hit.

Joe Tucker had a video a long while back in which he pretty much said this...big part of why I think it.

KMRUNOUT
 
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I use spin ( and lots of it lol ) on just about every shot . Love throwing them in. I have been told many times that I use TOO much spin and too often. It's just the way I learned coming up and figure no point in changing it now. For me, it's not really about " showing off " ( although I do have to admit it is pretty, so pretty ), but rather as I said just how I learned and have played my entire pool life. It certainly does come in handy on the occasions when you do actually " have to " spin a ball in though. I play mostly one hole and those shots seem to come up more than in rotation.

Oh yeah I meant to add - as far as the center ball, in my experience that's usually what's taught to beginners because as we all know when you spin the rock it throws the object ball and makes novice players miss a lot because they do not know / are not used to compensating for it.
 
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