Pro Pool tours... why do they fail?
- Thread starter back2good1
- Start date
Sponsors with very deep pockets, who can get prime tv coverage to generate $$ - this will then get the rest of it to fall in line. Original sponsor and additional sponsors will make money, they will pay players so they can continue to make money. If there is enough money paid to players they will figure out they need to police themselves - professional, no drugs, etc. Look at the golf circuit, they make millions and its not on admittance fees to the tournaments. Its tv coverage, rich sponsors, and strong player organization.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
The problem with pool is that it CAN'T draw much of a TV audience. Without high TV ratings, no sport can survive as "professional". And IMO that will never change. Sad...but true.
sjm said:
I understand this, all too well. I will state, though, that at the Vegas event last year, as one example, there were quite a few so-called "pros" whose suits, button-up shirts, and formal shoes were giving them fits when they were trying to compete. The dress code did allow turtle-neck shirts, and some pros took advantage of that. The long-sleeved shirts, which are required, did hamper some pros in that the shirt was hitting their cue sticks when they were stroking, and there were also some pros whose feet were hurting from the shoes.
Minnesota Fats said putting a pool player in a suit is like "putting chocolate ice cream on oysters."
I think too that up North, there is a different "norm" when it comes to dress compared to down South. Most tournaments down south allow a pool player to wear a short-sleeved shirt and sneakers, maybe because of the humidity. I don't know, but there is definitely a difference in what is considered the accepted norm.
Pro golfers don't wear uncomfortable suits, button-down shirts, and formal shoes when they are competing. It is imperative that they are comfortable. Maybe some players can compete in a formal suit, button-down shirt, and leather shoes, but there are quite a few players who find this uniform quite undesirable when they are competing.
sjm said:
I agree with much of what you say. However, when the rules of an event are changed during the event willy nilly, when the ranking systems of a governing body of professional pool are done behind the scenes with absolutely no transparency, and only the friends of the authority figures seem to get picked for high-profile events, the fault may lay with something other than the professional player himself.
I say "himself" because, as you state, the pro women do not seem to experience the same problems as the pro men. The WPBA is a transparent organization that serves its membership well.
2007 is a new year, and what the future holds is anybody's guess. Will the IPT return to the pool scene? Will the UPA put forth a legitimate tour with multiple events for its membership? Will the majority of pool tournaments be held overseas?
I wish I knew the answer as to what would be the change agent for American pool, especially as it pertains to the pro men. To date, there have been too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. A pro pool organization needs to provide a level playing field, MUST be transparent, and at least exert an effort to provide benefits to ALL members, not just an assorted few who are friends with those who are making the decisions for the organization behind closed doors. JMHO, FWIW!
JAM
Lets use two examples from the broad end of the spectrum. You have MLS and NFL. MLS is NEVER televised and NFL is on all over the place. Where does the revenue come in for each of these sports? Beer comercials, Cigarrette Advertising, Movie advertising, AO Hell Advertising. The interest is drawn when kids are young. I think that the interest in pool is already there it has not been presented well. Even the IPT went about it wrong. Every other commercial was a Mike Sigel Ass LICK. I spend 2 days a week @ NFL flag football and in the summer I will be spending 2 days a week @ MLS sponsered soccer. Everone is so friggin uptight about sponsership. When Camel was doing the Camel Tour everyone was afraid that it shed a bad light on the industry. But no one says a word about the big Malboro sign @ the stadium. When Amber Bach threw some money in the pot everyone was scared that it would put off the younger crowd but no one says anything about the Bud Bowl.Charlie Edwards said:
I just read the article in the June 1998 BD where everyone was complaining that Camel Pulled out. Camel stated two reasons in that article; 1) they could not deal with the arrogance of the players (citing Earl Strickland unscrewing during the finals of that year). 2) Getting too much flack with being associated with pool and their influence on the younger crowd. I hated to see letters to the editor in the same issue of someone *****ing that Paul Sorvino was on the cover with a cigar in his mouth (in a previous issue) WHO CARES!!! Cash is cash and if a company wants to put in the pot then let it happen. And everyone is surprised when a con man comes in and slings a book on home medicine and gets out when the gettin is good. What did you expect?
JV
vagabond said:
And don't forget what Tonya Harding did for professional ice skating.
vagabond said:It is also not fair to put burden on the pros to look like preppi boys all the time when they could hardly pay their bills.If they are give enough money,I bet many of them may improve their grooming.Tuxedos did not do any thing for the pool.
Well, the majority of existing pro players in the United States were competing in the IPT last year, and as such, they were all dressed to the nines, wearing formal suits, vests, button-down shirts, and leather shoes. Millions of dollars were expended for fancy venues as well as a reality TV series while these pro players were wearing their formal attire, many of whom were very uncomfortable competing, I might add. What the players were wearing didn't seem to matter as far as attracting a new TV audience and elevating pool as a sport.
I also think that the acceptable norm for what a pool player wears is a regional thing. I have seen some New York City players, as an example, who pluck their eyebrows and have had their nails manicured. You wouldn't find a red-blooded American Southern player engaging in these types of self-grooming behavior.
When you consider the payouts of SOME week-long events compared to the expenses to attend the week-long events, I am today surprised at how many pro players continue to follow the tournament trail. Even when you win, place, or show in a couple tournaments, the monies received can only cover the losses due to expenses from attending previous tournaments and/or must be utilized to pay for upcoming tournaments.
Interestingly, the NBA last year instituted a rule that the member players MUST be wearing a suit on the offs when in the public's eye for media purposes. Of course, they make enough money to buy the suits, but they sure as heck don't have to wear them when they are competing. Pool players in suits -- COMPETING IN THE PIT -- is a joke, IMHO!
JAM
back2good1 said:
Easy. It's boring to watch.
Boring sometimes for pool freaks like us. Boring almost all the time for non pool freaks.
I know a lot of pool players, but I know very few pool players who would shell out even 2 bucks to go watch a pool tournament.
MLS is played mostly in very large venues...pool is not. Pro pool can't make it by attendance only. It has been tried time and time again, and pool has proved that it can't draw a TV crowd. Only real pool enthusiast watch it on TV, and there are not enough of us to give anywhere near the ratings necessary.Johnny "V" said:
I still say a national tour that starts out in the grass roots and filters up to the national championship would work. The BCA and APA do it using a league system and it is very successful (on a comparitive).
If I were a national sponser I would put a tour together that would allow people to sign up (not 2000 bucks to play in a qualifier) but lets say 20-25 bucks per person. They can then play in multiple qualifiers for city, region then state. take a percentage of the purse in the qualifiers for each group, say 20 percent. Roll that up to the region and the state. Once you have a purse then you have a national tournament. Get as many advertisers you can to get on board in the beginning to pay for the local expenses.
Lets say in an average city you have 5 pool halls. In those pool halls you have 10 people that would be interested in doing something like this. 5X10X25=1250 bucks per city for signups. Lets say per state you have an average of 7 cities that would come out to 8750 per state or 420,000 nationwide (the lower 48 states). That is only 17,500 members nationwide. now lets say that those members play in qualifiers each month and it cost 20 bucks to play in those. The first second and third player of each gets registered to play in the state matches. Out off the 20 bucks the head keeps 5 bucks. 5x17500x12 comes to 1,050,000 plus the 420,000 that you received on registration and you are looking at a grand total of 1,470,000. I have not even added in the sponsership yet or monies that can be made from the regionals. If you went on that alone you would have enough money for 29.4 people to be paid 50,000 a year. These numbers are low estimates. I would assume that the APA and BCA have much larger membership numbers than that.
Now I am not taking into account the expenses for the regional or national tournaments but I am sure that sponsership could cover that and have enough to double the number from above.
JV
If I were a national sponser I would put a tour together that would allow people to sign up (not 2000 bucks to play in a qualifier) but lets say 20-25 bucks per person. They can then play in multiple qualifiers for city, region then state. take a percentage of the purse in the qualifiers for each group, say 20 percent. Roll that up to the region and the state. Once you have a purse then you have a national tournament. Get as many advertisers you can to get on board in the beginning to pay for the local expenses.
Lets say in an average city you have 5 pool halls. In those pool halls you have 10 people that would be interested in doing something like this. 5X10X25=1250 bucks per city for signups. Lets say per state you have an average of 7 cities that would come out to 8750 per state or 420,000 nationwide (the lower 48 states). That is only 17,500 members nationwide. now lets say that those members play in qualifiers each month and it cost 20 bucks to play in those. The first second and third player of each gets registered to play in the state matches. Out off the 20 bucks the head keeps 5 bucks. 5x17500x12 comes to 1,050,000 plus the 420,000 that you received on registration and you are looking at a grand total of 1,470,000. I have not even added in the sponsership yet or monies that can be made from the regionals. If you went on that alone you would have enough money for 29.4 people to be paid 50,000 a year. These numbers are low estimates. I would assume that the APA and BCA have much larger membership numbers than that.
Now I am not taking into account the expenses for the regional or national tournaments but I am sure that sponsership could cover that and have enough to double the number from above.
JV
What ever happened to that dress code of wearing a tuxedo in tournaments? Wasn't this supposed to add class? They were nothing more than wolves in sheep clothing. I think there should be some kind of dress code and the players need to be profressional about it but those tuxedos went a little over board.
Again going back to NASCAR. A lot of it is about image. Roush had a program on about picking the next race car driver. Part of it was image. How they prensented themselves in interviews and camera appeal.
As others posted the European players are all classy. Look at some of the US players. They look as if they just got out of bed after spending the night in a pup tent and ate too much bar food in between innings. But then on the other hand there are a US pros that are neat in appearance, Corey, Gabe, Archer, Harriman, to name a few.
Pool doesn't need anymore people like that K T character either.
Again going back to NASCAR. A lot of it is about image. Roush had a program on about picking the next race car driver. Part of it was image. How they prensented themselves in interviews and camera appeal.
As others posted the European players are all classy. Look at some of the US players. They look as if they just got out of bed after spending the night in a pup tent and ate too much bar food in between innings. But then on the other hand there are a US pros that are neat in appearance, Corey, Gabe, Archer, Harriman, to name a few.
Pool doesn't need anymore people like that K T character either.
Wearing a Tux is going to the extreme for pool... I am an advocate of dressing nicely but I am not sure it really matters. Look at poker. 99% of those folks could care less what they are wearing.... and the ESPN audience that watches them doesn't seem to care either.
back2good1 said:
Exactly... The success or failure of pool has a spectator sport has absolutely NOTHING to do with apparel.
It can be said on the apparel issue, that some folks can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It all has to do with effort, and attitude.
How many of those guys in leather shoes took the time to break them in before wearing them to the tournament? I will be the first to support comfortable footwear however.
Dressing 'professionally' has little to do with the article, (tie, polo, mock turtle, sweater, shirt, button-down) and more to do with how they present it. All can look good and some people can make all look bad.
Until the men can get something organized and support it, there will be no 'Pro' mens TOUR.
JMO.
How many of those guys in leather shoes took the time to break them in before wearing them to the tournament? I will be the first to support comfortable footwear however.
Dressing 'professionally' has little to do with the article, (tie, polo, mock turtle, sweater, shirt, button-down) and more to do with how they present it. All can look good and some people can make all look bad.
Until the men can get something organized and support it, there will be no 'Pro' mens TOUR.
JMO.
Regarding the dress issue: 1. I don't think how the players dress is imperitive to the success of a professional tour, but it would certainly help or at least not hurt. 2. Some have used the PGA Tour to suggest the players don't have to look nice...on the contrary all of the players on the PGA Tour follow a dress code and dress above and beyond what is required. Also, the talk about golfers needing to be comfortable is an unfair comparison to pool. It would be quite hard to make the movements required of a golf swing in a button down dress shirt and tie...a cue stroke on the other hand not so much. 3. Tuxedos are excessive, but comparing tuxedos to wearing dress pants and a button down "bar" shirt is a logical flaw. They simply aren't comparable.
Wow, we may be treading on difficult territory here in this thread. I either had a post deleted or I lost it in cyberspace! 
I agree with others in the thread the the men's attire does not have anything to do with the success of pool.
Pool's lack of luster in the States is a compound fracture, and for those who believe it is because the players themselves, it ain't.
However, those long-sleeved shirts hinder some players' performances when they are competing. I think the sleeves rolled up, like it was in Vegas, did not look nice, reminding me of car mechanics rather than professional players. Different strokes for different folks, and for a side-armed player, as an example, that shirt sleeve can get in the way BIG TIME.
JAM
I agree with others in the thread the the men's attire does not have anything to do with the success of pool.
Pool's lack of luster in the States is a compound fracture, and for those who believe it is because the players themselves, it ain't.
However, those long-sleeved shirts hinder some players' performances when they are competing. I think the sleeves rolled up, like it was in Vegas, did not look nice, reminding me of car mechanics rather than professional players. Different strokes for different folks, and for a side-armed player, as an example, that shirt sleeve can get in the way BIG TIME.
JAM
I agree. Pool needs more than a cosmetic/fashion makeover. Pool needs to be displayed in a truest, barest form. One of the other reasons that the tours fail is because we are trying to sell pool as soething that its not. Pool is a game that attracts a diverse crowd, which means we have the ability to attract a diverse audience. The IPT had great potential to show pool in its truest form, but they decided to dress up the players and concentrate more on glitz and less on who we really are as people.
Pool has many colorful and interesting characters and we need to market that. Many people have never heard of Efren Reyes in this country. He has such a magnetic, endearing personality that can be used to attract players and widen our market base. The same holds true with many others like John Schmidt, Charlie Bryant, Corey Deuel, and yes - Earl! Say what you want about Earl - he attracts a crowd - and that is what we need. Like Fast Eddie said to Vincent - "You have to learn how to be yourself - but on purpose." Pool should take that advice and run with it. There is nothing more entertaining than some good unrehearsed woofing - deal making - and high stake marathons. Marketing pool the same way over and over (double elim tournaments) has NEVER gotten us anywhere. I am all for a pit-style environment where the last man (or woman) standing wins all the cash. That would add excitement to our game - instead of showing us on ESPN as a stuffy, quiet, serious group of people that only generate applause when it seems acceptable.
In the past 10-20 years we have been surpassed by poker, volleyball, cage fighting, BMX Racing, and pro wrestling. These forms of sport & entertainment understand how to effectively market themselves - and they all think outside the box. We need to think back to what excited us and drew us into the game of pool - if we bottle that up and sell it - we can be just as successful as other sports. Window dressing won't work - it never has - it never will.
Pool has many colorful and interesting characters and we need to market that. Many people have never heard of Efren Reyes in this country. He has such a magnetic, endearing personality that can be used to attract players and widen our market base. The same holds true with many others like John Schmidt, Charlie Bryant, Corey Deuel, and yes - Earl! Say what you want about Earl - he attracts a crowd - and that is what we need. Like Fast Eddie said to Vincent - "You have to learn how to be yourself - but on purpose." Pool should take that advice and run with it. There is nothing more entertaining than some good unrehearsed woofing - deal making - and high stake marathons. Marketing pool the same way over and over (double elim tournaments) has NEVER gotten us anywhere. I am all for a pit-style environment where the last man (or woman) standing wins all the cash. That would add excitement to our game - instead of showing us on ESPN as a stuffy, quiet, serious group of people that only generate applause when it seems acceptable.
In the past 10-20 years we have been surpassed by poker, volleyball, cage fighting, BMX Racing, and pro wrestling. These forms of sport & entertainment understand how to effectively market themselves - and they all think outside the box. We need to think back to what excited us and drew us into the game of pool - if we bottle that up and sell it - we can be just as successful as other sports. Window dressing won't work - it never has - it never will.
Awww c'mon Blackjack don't you think the flashing light behind the fog and the two hooters girls waving pom poms before the players come out is a draw? I don't know it makes me wanna go out and buy a cue, case, chalk and a few dvd's. The funniest thing is to see all that hoopla and see Mika come walking through the fog with no emotion on his face. He doesn't even acknowledge the crowd when he gets out there. It really makes it look corny... I MEAN REALLY CORNY.Blackjack said: