Turning Stone - rip off

Careful here, they are completely different games. 1000's of people tried to run a pool tournament. How many of them are still going? 5? Were they all idiots? Is Zuglan an idiot? I'd wager if you took all of your skills acquired from the golf tournament, and applied it to a pool tournament/tour, you'd probably shoot yourself after one season after all of the crybabies finally got to you.

How much do you make per event?
How much do you get in sponsorship?
Why did you change my rating?
Why do you make more than the player who won, for sitting at a table all the event, and simply calling out names?
Why do you advertise money added, if you charge a greens fee? Don't they cancel each other out?
Why are you withholding 1/3 of my winnings if I'm an international player?
This cheater I'm playing keeps giving me slug racks. Forfeit him.
This other cheater I'm playing keeps giving himself perfect racks, and the wing ball is wired. Forfeit him.

That's the type of crap you will deal with every event. Good luck transferring your video golf skills over to the pool player. ha ha

When did I ever say I was gonna transfer my skills to the pool player? YOu have a habit of misreading my words whcih are generally pretty clear.
I stated I put my efforts into something else besides pool cause it just isn't worth it in pool.
Could I do it. YES.
Would I be successful. YES.
Would I change the way pool tourneys are run and formatted. YES
Will I do it. NO

It hasn't all been perfect for me and I have made judgement errors. The biggest was when a private individual came to me and said he wanted to sponsor an event, adding $10K. The first year, he did it with no issues. The second year, he went awol and left me hanging.

What did I do? I pulled the 10k out of my own pocket and added it to the event. Why? Cause my name was on it and I like to keep my name clean plus it was my mistake for trusting someone who I thought beyond everything else, was a friend. And I didn't make a big issue out of it, not one player knew at the time of the event as I didn't want to distract from it.

Now what would have happened in the pool world? The tournament director would have said, sorry everyone, the money isn't there. But thanks for coming out anyways. And some people, like the ones in this thread that don't get that double dipping entry fees is shady, would stand behind a tournament director/promoter not adding the money he promised cause he had an excuse to do so. And I can give you plenty of examples in pool where this has happened and people let it go.
 
How would you recommend I deal with it? Could you give me tips?

Early years of pool on network TV, his skill was compared to the Great Willie Hoppe. But two things caught my attention about this man years ago....Remember he's a pool player....1st, his east coast ego screamed....then a 70's network billiard show when he was ready to go on mic for a pool match, when the camera suddenly panned to him, he immediately realized they were rolling tape and immediately he fixed his hair :), swished his head back and forth, trying to appear like himself before he spoke. He, like Hubbard and Terry Bell, know how to milk the cow just right and so be it. I was tho amazed Dawns character married the man, tho she was broke dick also.
 
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He says he has "morals". Lol

Cleary says that Turning Stone is a "RIP-OFF".

Cleary says that Mike Zuglan is doing "SHADY BUSINESS".

Cleary calls those accusations "criticizing the policy". Lol

JoeyA says Cleary's attack and accusations are groundless and are designed to impugn the reputation of Mike Zuglan and one of the finest tournaments in the country AND THAT'S DISGUSTING. (and so does the majority of people on this forum).



On top of that, he accuses other fine, upstanding members of this forum to having questionable morals because they don't agree with his perverted perspective. DISGUSTING.

JoeyA

He and his tournaments are seemingly well liked, seemingly successful and seemingly appreciated. That's not the point. He may be a great guy. He has a lot of people who vouch for this character so that says a lot... but that doesn't change the fact that what he does with this policy is wrong. I've yet to hear one good reason why this policy should be in place as it is other than, it's his tournament he can do what he wants. And, that's absolutely true. And, I can criticize the policy.
 
Whoa... I order with no pickles. What DOES McDonalds do with MY pickles? I sure hope they don't pocket them, because with your ketchup and who knows WHAT else, that'd be pretty gross by the end of the day.

To be honest I'm a no pickle guy. No ketchup on a hamburger should be outlawed.
 
He and his tournaments are seemingly well liked, seemingly successful and seemingly appreciated. That's not the point. He may be a great guy. He has a lot of people who vouch for this character so that says a lot... but that doesn't change the fact that what he does with this policy is wrong. I've yet to hear one good reason why this policy should be in place as it is other than, it's his tournament he can do what he wants. And, that's absolutely true. And, I can criticize the policy.


OK. Let's say he's WRONG (I don't think so...but lets park that). The fact that he's open and up front with it should be clear and thus morally and ethically clean. Saying anything that approaches his ethics due to his published (or well advised) business practices is just off base.
 
Cleary says that Turning Stone is a "RIP-OFF".

Cleary says that Mike Zuglan is doing "SHADY BUSINESS".

Cleary calls those accusations "criticizing the policy". Lol

JoeyA says Cleary's attack and accusations are groundless and are designed to impugn the reputation of Mike Zuglan and one of the finest tournaments in the country AND THAT'S DISGUSTING. (and so does the majority of people on this forum).



On top of that, he accuses other fine, upstanding members of this forum to having questionable morals because they don't agree with his perverted perspective. DISGUSTING.

JoeyA

Ahhhh the hopes of JoeyA being a "pool commentator" once again lives strong inside him so let's make sure JoeyA doesn't call out something that is wrong involving a TD. Sorry JoeyA, but my sources tell me you are gonna have to up your game as a pool commentator to more than finding a great player to sit beside you and constantly ask - "what would you do here". Simply kissing up isn't gonna cut it.
 
Cleary says that Turning Stone is a "RIP-OFF".

Cleary says that Mike Zuglan is doing "SHADY BUSINESS".

Cleary calls those accusations "criticizing the policy". Lol

JoeyA says Cleary's attack and accusations are groundless and are designed to impugn the reputation of Mike Zuglan and one of the finest tournaments in the country AND THAT'S DISGUSTING. (and so does the majority of people on this forum).



On top of that, he accuses other fine, upstanding members of this forum to having questionable morals because they don't agree with his perverted perspective. DISGUSTING.

JoeyA

This sounds like a local news promo. TONIGHT AT 8! CLEARY SAYS HE CAN DO A BACKFLIP! OUR CAMERAS FOUND OUT, IT WAS ALL A LIEEEE!!!! TUNE IN FOR LIVE TRAFFIC AND STORM TRACKER 6000 BRINGING YOU THE MOST ACCURATE WEATHER IN THE TRISTATE AREA! SPONSORED BY PEPSI
 
OK. Let's say he's WRONG (I don't think so...but lets park that). The fact that he's open and up front with it should be clear and thus morally and ethically clean. Saying anything that approaches his ethics due to his published (or well advised) business practices is just off base.

Here's how I see it. He's not breaking any law that I'm aware of. Apparently he's clear about it. I say apparently because it's not (that I see) on his website or on the Turning Stone flier. So, I'm guessing he tells you this policy in person every time he takes an entry? So yes, apparently he's transparent about it.

But to me, that doesn't mean it's morally okay to have that policy. It puts the customer in an awaked position. They need to weigh how badly they'd like to play vs. how terrible of a deal it is for them if something comes up where they're not able to play. Sure, most don't care. It probably doesn't even cross their mind and as useless as the fine print on a cereal box. Why? Because it's never happened to them. I don't operate like that. When I see something happening to others that I feel is wrong, I speak up.

My goal is that hopefully Mike sees this and rethinks his policy. I'm not here to put him down or call him names. I don't know him personally nor would I know who he was if he came up and punched me in the face.
 
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Ahhhh the hopes of JoeyA being a "pool commentator" once again lives strong inside him so let's make sure JoeyA doesn't call out something that is wrong involving a TD. Sorry JoeyA, but my sources tell me you are gonna have to up your game as a pool commentator to more than finding a great player to sit beside you and constantly ask - "what would you do here". Simply kissing up isn't gonna cut it.

He's terrible. Possibly the worst.
 
Here's how I see it. He's not breaking any law that I'm aware of. Apparently he's clear about it. I say apparently because it's not (that I see) on his website or on the Turning Stone flier. So, I'm guessing he tells you this policy in person every time he takes an entry? So yes, apparently he's transparent about it.

But to me, that doesn't mean it's morally okay to have that policy. It puts the customer in an awaked position. They need to weigh how badly they'd like to play vs. how terrible of a deal it is for them if something comes up where they're not able to play. Sure, most don't care. It probably doesn't even cross their mind and as useless as the fine print on a cereal box. Why? Because it's never happened to them. I don't operate like that. When I see something happening to others that I feel is wrong, I speak up.



My goal is that hopefully Mike sees this and rethinks his policy. I'm not here to put him down or call him names. I don't know him personally nor would I know who he was if he came up and punched me in the face.

OK. I can except that. If you can accept "RIP OFF" was probably over the top.
 
Early years of pool on network TV, his skill was compared to the Great Willie Hoppe. But two things caught my attention about this man years ago....Remember he's a pool player....1st, his east coast ego screamed....then a 70's network billiard show when he was ready to go on mic for a pool match, when the camera suddenly panned to him, he immediately realized they were rolling tape and immediately he fixed his hair :), swished his head back and forth, trying to appear like himself before he spoke. He, like Hubbard and Terry Bell, know how to milk the cow just right and so be it. I was tho amazed Dawns character married the man, tho she was broke dick also.

I'll have what he's drinking.
 
Do you know this policy about no refunds when you sign up? If it's clear, I don't see the issue. If the no refund is not stated, I'd agree that you have a legitimate gripe. Just one outsider view. YMMV



I handed my money to Mike in person, and he could not have been more clear about telling me this.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Early years of pool on network TV, his skill was compared to the Great Willie Hoppe. But two things caught my attention about this man years ago....Remember he's a pool player....1st, his east coast ego screamed....then a 70's network billiard show when he was ready to go on mic for a pool match, when the camera suddenly panned to him, he immediately realized they were rolling tape and immediately he fixed his hair :), swished his head back and forth, trying to appear like himself before he spoke. He, like Hubbard and Terry Bell, know how to milk the cow just right and so be it. I was tho amazed Dawns character married the man, tho she was broke dick also.

Uh....Bill.....Hmm.....Oh, never mind:rolleyes:
 
Being transparent about shady business ethics doesn't make them more ethical. And reselling the spot you've already sold and keeping the money is a dirty way of doing business. You can tattoo it on your forehead, and put up a million signs, it's still a bad business practice that should be known to the public.



And I agree, if you don't like it, don't play. That's EXACTLY what the original post states as to why I would never play.



The term "shady" is derived from the noun "shade", as in darkness, not out in the light, unseen or secret. By definition, a practice that is openly disclosed is not shady. It is specifically the opposite of shady. One may argue their opinion about whether or not the practice is "objectionable", "compassionate", or something one personally agrees with, but no one in this thread or on AzBilliards is a favorite in an argument with the dictionary.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Actually it does. If you are completely transparent, not misleading anyone, and any transactions are completely voluntary on all sides, then it isn't shady or unethical.



Shady and unethical mean different things. A policy can be shady but ethical, just as a policy can be unethical but not shady. Cleary appears to be attempting to claim that the policy is unethical, but is confusedly using the term shady to do so. Zuglan's policies are clear and transparent. By definition, it is not shady. It is a completely separate issue as to whether or not the policy is ethical. Arguments can be made logically on both sides of that issue. I believe it helps the conversation to maintain one's ability to discern between "shady" and "unethical".

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
I handed my money to Mike in person, and he could not have been more clear about telling me this.
[...]

Again, I'm trying to figure out who is the injured party here

A. person who signs up and doesn't go


This person got exactly what he or she expected to get and paid for; no harm no foul

B. A player, like KMRUNOUT, who signs up and plays

This person expects when he signs up to have a competently run event on passable equipment with a prize fund commensurate with the number of players in the field and the advertised added $$.

C. Who else?


Who is the loser here?
 
I'm not here to put him down or call him names. I don't know him personally nor would I know who he was if he came up and punched me in the face.

"Rip-Off"
"Shady Business"


Yeah, your words & title of the thread weren't meant to put him down..............SURE

JoeyA
 
Well, you're wrong Watchez. I have no aspirations of doing commentary at Turning Stone. (A few years ago, I did make an attempt to play in the event but it was already full).

I like to take up for people who do good things for pool especially when people like you and Cleary, sit on your hands and whine like little children.

Since you and Cleary seem to whine so much about pool tournaments whose policies you don't like and/or don't play in, you two should promote your own pool event INSTEAD OF MAKING DISPARAGING REMARKS about other people's events. :D:D:D

JoeyA


Ahhhh the hopes of JoeyA being a "pool commentator" once again lives strong inside him so let's make sure JoeyA doesn't call out something that is wrong involving a TD. Sorry JoeyA, but my sources tell me you are gonna have to up your game as a pool commentator to more than finding a great player to sit beside you and constantly ask - "what would you do here". Simply kissing up isn't gonna cut it.
 
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