Turning Stone - rip off

After giving this topic some thought I am agreeing with those that say its no shady ...unethical or a rip off or whatever connotation you use to describe your displeasure over his policy of no refunds.

Some have said other business such as airlines and hotels give refunds and so should mike. Well the difference is you are comparing major corporations with a basically one man show who promotes pool. Over the years j have encountered many small businesses who have a no refund policy . Many dont have the time or inclination to go through the hassle of refunding money and no matter how you look at it , it is a hassle.

I will tell you the difference between what mike does and what is shady...unethical and a rip off. When 9/11 occurred fuel prices tripled in a matter of hours. Now that my friends was shady...unethical and a rip off. Many station owners took advantage and profited off of the panic and fear that ensued that day after the plane crashes.
 
lorider said:
I will tell you the difference between what mike does and what is shady...unethical and a rip off. When 9/11 occurred fuel prices tripled in a matter of hours. Now that my friends was shady...unethical and a rip off. Many station owners took advantage and profited off of the panic and fear that ensued that day after the plane crashes.
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Why? The price is clearly stated. Don't like it, don't buy gas. Taking advantage of a situation and profiting off of an unfortunate event is apparently the right way to do business around here.
 
200 dollars...Enough to make a "federal case" out of something, apparently. I honestly don't get it? How can something be a ripoff, when it's clear that the person offering the service clearly did-, or at least would follow through on his obligations, while the person complaining didn't?

Sure, it's nice to get a refund sometimes because one changes ones mind, but I don't think one should EXPECT it. It's more of a gesture done by the business owner, not from the goodness of his heart, but as a calculated move to get more customers. Guess who pays for this "goodwill". Well, you and me, of course, the people who actually buy stuff we want after doing the research and necessary time management. You don't think he's paying out of pocket, do you? He hikes his prices up to pay for this "extra special service". Much like we pay for the imbeciles who put diesel in their gasoline engines etc, through increased insurance rates. A big business figures their volume of business will allow them to bear the cost, and a small increase in good publicity may actually put them ahead in the long run (again with large volumes of sales). But when tactics like this are being used on small business owners, it can get really ugly. They may not have the means to just swallow such losses many times, nor the ability to increase their prices appropriately, because of low volume of sales, and then the bullies really go to work on them. I hate such campaigning, when it's obvious A tournament is much like a small business, in that the possiblity to jack up prices and compensate for this behavior may not be there, because people expect the organizers to do everything for free. If they do increase prices people complain that they are being "ripped off".

If he had a 30 day before the tournament return policy, you can bet that we'd hear a sob story about some person wanting a refund on the 29th day, and then if the guy actually gave in to this, some guy who didn't get a refund would go ballistic.

Big businesses usually give in to social media blackmail like this, because the volume of their business is so high that they easily afford it. So many people use this tactic, fishing for freebies etc..It's so sickening and transparent. "Little Joshua couldn't get his Christmas wish this year, wah wah". And then the parents rubbing their hands, eagerly awaiting the inevitable handout, expecting not only the item for free but some sort of over the top gesture gift for the entire family, themselves especially. You can almost see them behind the scenes, coaching their child on how to cry.

F-ing disgusting, especially when it's clear that the business was not in the wrong, and the family could easily afford the item with some better priorities being made. But for big business it's all part of the game, and I don't feel sorry for them, why would I, they benefit from it. The small businesses are the ones who get the raw deal.

For a tournament of this kind, they NEED full fields. So they resell the spot. Should they symbolically keep the spot vacant? Such a pointless thing to do and blatantly unfair to people who showed up expecting a full field. Ok, so they should return the money for the spot they resold, then? What if they don't sell all the spots? And who's going to pay for the extra work involved? Would you accept a price hike?
 
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cleary said:
Why? The price is clearly stated. Don't like it, don't buy gas. Taking advantage of a situation and profiting off of an unfortunate event is apparently the right way to do business around here.
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Clearly the difference is one is price gouging which includes drastically raising prices directly following an emergency and the other is someone with a set price and set rules for almost two decades.
 
cleary said:
Why? The price is clearly stated. Don't like it, don't buy gas. Taking advantage of a situation and profiting off of an unfortunate event is apparently the right way to do business around here.
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Ever heard of supply-n-demand? I live in tornado country. After one has torn a town a new a-hole do you think local vendors give supplies-water-food away? Prices skyrocket and people gladly pay it. I must have missed the public-service announcement that life is supposed to be fair.
 
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garczar said:
Ever heard of supply-n-demand? I live in tornado country. After one has torn a town a new a-hole do you think local vendors give supplies-water-food away? Prices skyrocket and people gladly pay it. I must have missed the public-service announcement that life is supposed to be fair.
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I see and agree with your point however would that not be considered price gouging and be illegal? Point being Mike is not price gouging nope doing anything Illegal.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.
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Selling spots is easy to defeat. Just say the open spot goes to the next one in line.

Hotel bookings is a lame excuse since the entry fee does not come bundled with a paid room reservation afaik.

Extra work IS a legitimate reason to keep some of the entry fee, 10% max IMO less any money transfer fees that might be incurred.

Yes, one can be "ripped off" even if they accept the rules. Because Turning Stone is an earning opportunity players can feel that they must accept the policy to ensure a spot. I would be ok with it if the policy had a withdrawal timeframe attached. Withdraw a month before the event you lose the entire amount. That lets the organizer plan with little volatility.

But at the end of the day, Mike Zuglan has built a solid tour and runs two major events that have to date never had a single issue with payments to the players. So with that in mind, I would say that the policy is working for him and the event even though it seems a bit heavy-handed.

Let's talk about that silly no-jump cues rule though? is that still in effect? :-) (seriously don't talk about it, I was kidding, really don't)
 
garczar said:
Ever heard of supply-n-demand? I live in tornado country. After one has torn a town a new a-hole do you think local vendors give supplies-water-food away? Prices skyrocket and people gladly pay it. I must have missed the public-service announcement that life is supposed to be fair.
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Actually, price-gouging in the aftermath of a disaster is pretty much illegal everywhere in the USA. And no one gladly pays hyper-inflated prices after a disaster.

That said this isn't price-gouging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging
 
watchez said:
He isnt honest. Double dipping is not an honest thing to do, no matter how you spin it.
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He isn't double dipping though. He is not getting two entry fees for one spot. It isn't an entry fee if a person isn't playing (an entry fee requires an entrant) and so you have to stop thinking of it as an entry fee at that point because it no longer is. It is now simply unused money. That unused money can either go back to the player in the form of a refund, or if there is a fine for withdrawals, it can be applied to that. In this case there is a fine for withdrawals and so that unused money gets applied to the withdrawal fine. And of course Mike should sell the entry spot that is now open, unused, and unpaid for.

All Mike is doing is charging a $200 fine for withdrawals to discourage people from signing up if they are not serious and committed, and to reduce the chances that players he advertised as being in the field don't end up playing, and for his hassle in having to deal with the substitutions. Now whether we like this policy or not is largely personal preference and opinion, and whether it is the best policy or not is debatable and depends on whose perspective you are looking at it from and who you are hoping to benefit, but it isn't double dipping, it isn't dishonest or unethical, and he does have some compelling and good reasons for doing it this way.
 
Being very social creatures, prairie dogs will become depressed or sick if not given enough attention.

With the exception of male prairie dogs possibly having a stronger odor than females, the sex of a prairie dog doesn't make one a better pet than the other. Both sexes have anal glands.
 

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Poolplaya9 said:
He isn't double dipping though. He is not getting two entry fees for one spot. It isn't an entry fee if a person isn't playing (an entry fee requires an entrant) and so you have to stop thinking of it as an entry fee at that point because it no longer is. It is now simply unused money. That unused money can either go back to the player in the form of a refund, or if there is a fine for withdrawals, it can be applied to that. In this case there is a fine for withdrawals and so that unused money gets applied to the withdrawal fine. And of course Mike should sell the entry spot that is now open, unused, and unpaid for.

All Mike is doing is charging a $200 fine for withdrawals to discourage people from signing up if they are not serious and committed, and to reduce the chances that players he advertised as being in the field don't end up playing, and for his hassle in having to deal with the substitutions. Now whether we like this policy or not is largely personal preference and opinion, and whether it is the best policy or not is debatable and depends on whose perspective you are looking at it from and who you are hoping to benefit, but it isn't double dipping, it isn't dishonest or unethical, and he does have some compelling and good reasons for doing it this way.
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You make it sound even more unethical than it is. Don't get into PR.
 
JB Cases said:
Actually, price-gouging in the aftermath of a disaster is pretty much illegal everywhere in the USA. And no one gladly pays hyper-inflated prices after a disaster.

That said this isn't price-gouging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging
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Ever been in one? You now live in the tornado capital of the world, OkC. Wait til you wake-up(hopefully) and your s^*t is scattered for a couple miles. You won't complain one bit. Most places are cool and don't do it but at that point you really don't care.
 
garczar said:
Ever been in one? You now live in the tornado capital of the world, OkC. Wait til you wake-up(hopefully) and your s^*t is scattered for a couple miles. You won't complain one bit. Most places are cool and don't do it but at that point you really don't care.
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I would care even more. I'd pay whatever prices I had to, but I would be pretty upset about it. You'd be crazy to happily pay whatever they jacked their prices up to.
 
How about since there is a max number of players, if tournament fills, refund minus a hadling charge, if not filled no refund?
 
cleary said:
That would be very fair. I won't happen but it would be fair.
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Andrew,

This is just continuous verbal masterbation. Please pick up the phone and dial 518 - 356 - 7163. That's the number of the Joss Northeast Tour and Mike Zuglan. Obviously you enjoy kicking the dead horse even after House Pro said enough. Speak directly with him but please, please stop this continuing rant. By this time next week the event will be in full swing. Of course without Andrew Cleary. Cardiac kid will be there but only on Friday. I'll be sure to spend enough for both of us!

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Andrew,

This is just continuous verbal masterbation. Please pick up the phone and dial 518 - 356 - 7163. That's the number of the Joss Northeast Tour and Mike Zuglan. Obviously you enjoy kicking the dead horse even after House Pro said enough. Speak directly with him but please, please stop this continuing rant. By this time next week the event will be in full swing. Of course without Andrew Cleary. Cardiac kid will be there but only on Friday. I'll be sure to spend enough for both of us!

Lyn
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I'm replying to others. That's how a forum works. I didn't take what House Pro said as any kind of warning. If he wants to ban me... have at it. I don't believe I've broken any rules here. If he wants to pull the thread, it's his forum. Go for it. That said, if people say something and I feel the need to reply, I will. I wouldn't call replying to others as a rant. If you don't like it, sorry... I don't care.


I have no need or desire to call Mike. I've already read his replies with players via email. I know what he will say. And he's wrong for saying it but he's allowed to have his rules no matter how unethical some guy in New Jersey thinks they are.
 
cleary said:
You make it sound even more unethical than it is. Don't get into PR.
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I'm not out to be PR for anybody. I always prefer to just tell it like it is. A fine may not have been the best choice of word but Mike charges a fee for withdrawing. We can try to look at it some other way (like trying to see it as "double dipping") or try to call it something else all we want to, but it it doesn't change what it is and it is essentially a withdrawal fee that is done to serve several purposes.
 
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