Parallel English - amount of squirt

[Bob Jewett]

I can imagine that under certain conditions one might be able to get away with virtually no squirt on a shot in pool at that parallel offset. The conditions I would think that might work under this parallel shift would only be on a soft shot. I can't imagine playing that way under normal game conditions. I've never seen anyone play this way but I've seen many play side spin from a center axis cue butt position.

I think you don't have zero squirt, you just have zero effective squirt because of the swerve and throw.

Here is a shot that might be what you're thinking of:

At one pocket (most likely scenario) you want to shoot a stop shot on a ball close to the rack to freeze your opponent on the side of the rack. The cue ball is about a foot away from the object ball. You need a little spin to hold up the ball which is going to bank towards your pocket. You have to play the shot with draw and side and softly. In a situation like that you might even get negative effective squirt.

 

[mikepage]

I think you don't have zero squirt, you just have zero effective squirt because of the swerve and throw.

[...]

I don't like this "effective squirt" phrase.

I mean if I have two meatballs and a dollop of mashed potatoes on my plate,
and somebody asks me how many meatballs are on my plate, I don't say it's three "effective meatballs."

We could be equally confusing and no less reasonable by calling the whole adjustment "effective swerve" or "effective throw."

 

[Cornerman]

[...]

I don't like this "effective squirt" phrase.

I mean if I have two meatballs and a dollop of mashed potatoes on my plate,
and somebody asks me how many meatballs are on my plate, I don't say it's three "effective meatballs."

We could be equally confusing and no less reasonable by calling the whole adjustment "effective swerve" or "effective throw."

I also have been saying "effective pivot point" for ... well forever.

Is that more palatable?

The Aim & Pivot Method for squirt compensation didn't measure a pivot point for squirt alone; it did squirt *and* throw (no swerve in that case), so I never liked calling that "squirt" only. That's when I started calling it "effective squirt." When you and I were talking to Royce about the ins and outs of squirt a lifetime ago in Vegas, I recall your hesitation when I talked about effective squirt or effective pivot point versus the normal "natural squirt pivot point" of a cue.


Freddie

 

[mikepage]

[[[...] When you and I were talking to Royce about the ins and outs of squirt a lifetime ago in Vegas, I recall your hesitation [...]

I remember that conversation--six hours and about 24 cans of Bud between us.....

And I remember another long conversation with you on the same subject, also involving beer, at Smith's in Springfield MA--what was that the oldest continually operating pool hall or something?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't like this "effective squirt" phrase.
...

How about sqwerve?:wink:

 

[mikepage]

How about sqwerve?:wink:

If I can dip it in ranch, I'm ok with it.

 

[Cornerman]

I remember that conversation--six hours and about 24 cans of Bud between us.....

And I remember another long conversation with you on the same subject, also involving beer, at Smith's in Springfield MA--what was that the oldest continually operating pool hall or something?

Smith's Billiards!!!

no longer the longest continuous running pool ball in the country.

 

[336Robin]

That statement

The amount of squirt in degrees is proportional to tip offset (or very nearly so). That relationship is what makes backhand english work for a wide range of amounts of spin if the pivot point (bridge length) has been chosen correctly. The links already provided cover this stuff in detail.

I haven't read every billiard work ever written like some of you guys, however I don't think I've seen the above statement written anywhere. It's a great description.
Kudos! The very nearly so for me increases with distance and calls for somewhat of an allowance depending on your stroke. That allowance is also less than the allowance that I would use when playing side spin without BHE. BHE can be a wonderful thing no doubt.

 

[336Robin]

I think you don't have zero squirt, you just have zero effective squirt because of the swerve and throw.

Here is a shot that might be what you're thinking of:

At one pocket (most likely scenario) you want to shoot a stop shot on a ball close to the rack to freeze your opponent on the side of the rack. The cue ball is about a foot away from the object ball. You need a little spin to hold up the ball which is going to bank towards your pocket. You have to play the shot with draw and side and softly. In a situation like that you might even get negative effective squirt.

I can see that. I have a shot where I throw the object ball into the correct bank angle in a situation very close to what you just described using side spin, otherwise the object ball would hit the rail straight ahead and come straight back.

 

[buckets]

this dude is a snake oil salesman

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Parallel English is a technique of moving the cue stick parallel to the aim line (aimed at the new offset point), to introduce sidespin. This I know.

Different cues will have different squirt.

My question is, is the squirt the same if you hit half a tip off-centre and two tip off-centre. I presume they will be different. If so, which has more squirt?

I am not familiar with parallel English. Many swear by it whilst others rubbished it.

Parallel english is not taken through the center of mass of the cue ball. It's asking for trouble. Since inside english does little at small angles of cut, parallel english can be used for an aiming aid on certain shots or for little angle of attack variations.

 

[Cornerman]

I haven't read every billiard work ever written like some of you guys, however I don't think I've seen the above statement written anywhere. It's a great description.
Kudos! The very nearly so for me increases with distance and calls for somewhat of an allowance depending on your stroke. That allowance is also less than the allowance that I would use when playing side spin without BHE. BHE can be a wonderful thing no doubt.

This is why I latched on to the Aim & Pivot Method (as presented by Mr Jewett in his FAQ), and refined my personal aiming method around it. All pre-adjustments in my system are based on speed and length, but I keep my BHE pivot constant. I basically say, "thick, thin, or middle" based on length and speed and then do the exact same backhand english routine from there.

It's also why I don't prefer LD shafts: the effective pivot point is too long to use my BHE method. This is absolutely at he heart of why. But IMO players should still think in terms of thick, thin, middle (for those struggling with english), regardless of what shaft they're using.

I'm actually surprised that you say you haven't read it before. I think Dr Dave always points to his "advantages and diaadvantages.." of shafts with normal squirt. And as I normally say, we've talked about this for over 20 years. Maybe it's not obvious (squirt proportional to offset with the correct pivot length), so maybe Dr Dave will add Bob's post there, too. He's pretty good like that

There is also the discussion (MikePage) that breaking with a cue that has an effective pivot point about the length of you break bridge (or bridging at the effective pivot point during the break) would give some "automatic squirt compensation" (my quotes not mike's) for slight offset hits due to the back hand not traveling quite straight in line of the shot during the break stroke.


Freddie <~~~ crooked

 

[Cornerman]

this dude is a snake oil salesman

He's giving away his method for free, and he's excited about what he's discovering. When he starts charging for the information, then be suspicious!

On the other hand, I don't mind charging for my information.


Freddie <~~~ needs to charge more

 

[dr_dave]

I'm actually surprised that you say you haven't read it before. I think Dr Dave always points to his "advantages and disadvantages.." of shafts with normal squirt. And as I normally say, we've talked about this for over 20 years. Maybe it's not obvious (squirt proportional to offset with the correct pivot length), so maybe Dr Dave will add Bob's post there, too. He's pretty good like that

I have links to both Ron Shepard's document and Bob's squirt FAQ summary on the squirt/swerve/throw effects resource page (beneath the numbered list of effects), which is linked in many other places including the aim compensation when using sidespin and LD shaft advantages and disadvantages resource pages.

Regards,
Dave

 

[336Robin]

This is why I latched on to the Aim & Pivot Method (as presented by Mr Jewett in his FAQ), and refined my personal aiming method around it. All pre-adjustments in my system are based on speed and length, but I keep my BHE pivot constant. I basically say, "thick, thin, or middle" based on length and speed and then do the exact same backhand english routine from there.

I tried aim and pivot and just couldn't do it. What I ended up doing was going into the shot with my pivot point selected and getting down on my point of aim. Same thing just a bit different order. I did something very similar to this before I had ever read anything on pool and was playing pretty good only I was also swiping spin on with the last stroke, which I stopped doing for the sake of consistency. I like the simplicity of your thick, thin or middle. Little reminders like that are highly use able I've caught myself saying something similar on certain cut shots to sort of tell myself how the cue ball needs to address the object.

It's also why I don't prefer LD shafts: the effective pivot point is too long to use my BHE method. This is absolutely at he heart of why. But IMO players should still think in terms of thick, thin, middle (for those struggling with english), regardless of what shaft they're using.

I have and have tested all types of shafts. I stayed away from adopting and LD into my game for some of the same reasons until recent. I decided I was going to play the tip off of an LD shaft that I liked before I decided what to stick with forever. I was playing some good One Pocket with a 12.80 natural shaft when someone gave me a deal on a Jacoby Hybrid. After testing most of the major LDs it felt more natural so I bought it and am doing that now.

I'm actually surprised that you say you haven't read it before. I think Dr Dave always points to his "advantages and diaadvantages.." of shafts with normal squirt. And as I normally say, we've talked about this for over 20 years. Maybe it's not obvious (squirt proportional to offset with the correct pivot length), so maybe Dr Dave will add Bob's post there, too. He's pretty good like that

Yeah that's a great quote. Wish I had said it. I can promise you this the first time I get a chance at some solitary practice I will take all types of shafts I own to the table from 13mm to Ld and try that idea out and your thick, thin and middle. I already feel like the explanation fits pretty well.

There is also the discussion (MikePage) that breaking with a cue that has an effective pivot point about the length of you break bridge (or bridging at the effective pivot point during the break) would give some "automatic squirt compensation" (my quotes not mike's) for slight offset hits due to the back hand not traveling quite straight in line of the shot during the break stroke.

I think I remember reading that in Dr. Dave's material. I am continually blown away by his stuff.


Freddie <~~~ crooked

I replied in your quote.

 

[JolietJames]

I use an offset shot line parallel to the actual shot line on all high-inside and high-outside shots, and BHE on all low english shots. This new shot line is created prior to dropping into my stance. It's measurable and easy to practice with slight adjustments in offset and speed. Any sort of pivot, or movement of any part of the cue off parallel, (not including BHE), is a risky proposition IMO. I'm not selling anything, it's just the way I was taught by a top level instructor many years ago.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Hi Mikepage,

Many of the players that I communicate with in this forum uses parallel English (or whatever you call it) if they use a LD shaft. They claim that they aimed at their target then parallel shift a little. No need to offset.

I am try to reconcile it with BHE. When you pivot using BHE, you can actually parallel shift the new line of aim (the direction cue stick is pointing) back to the centre of the cue ball. It is as if you are aiming at this point to start with and then parallel shift it. Just trying to see if there is any connection between the two methods, hence I need to know if more squirt is introduced if you parallel shift to the extreme.

Thanks Mikepage for your straightforward answer.

Hmm I don't believe it has anything with aiming or aiming system here. Just the mechanics of how a ball will squirt is what I am interested in.

I think those people are mistaken about what they do. I play with a 314-3 and now way in hell can I use parallel english on any shot more than about 6" away from the cueball. I tend to come down on the ball either with the english compensation already made, or more often I am pivoting my entire body slightly. The point is, there isn't a question about whether a compensation is being made for deflection. The question is when and how in the process this is done, and to what degree the shooter is aware of what they are doing.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

this dude is a snake oil salesman

Without referring to anyone, your post format sounds like you are referring to yourself. Probably best to either quote, post a link, or mention who you are talking about.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Cornerman]

Parallel English is a technique of moving the cue stick parallel to the aim line (aimed at the new offset point), to introduce sidespin. This I know.

Different cues will have different squirt.

My question is, is the squirt the same if you hit half a tip off-centre and two tip off-centre. I presume they will be different. If so, which has more squirt?

I am not familiar with parallel English. Many swear by it whilst others rubbished it.

I hope you got your answer on this question as well. It's proportional. More offset means more Squirt angle, if everything else is the same.

 

[jsp]

I play with a 314-3 and now way in hell can I use parallel english on any shot more than about 6" away from the cueball.

I contest this assertion, especially with cut shots hit with stun where throw is maximized.

In some cases, I can even envision "negative effective squirt" (using Bob's imperfect term) using parallel outside english (with an LD shaft) when the amount of throw more than compensates for the effects of squirt.