Today's level of pool

Tin Man

Tin Man

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I had a few years off since I've played the US Open. Last time I played there was a $500 entry fee. I jumped back in this year and it was a totally different animal then my previous trips.

In general I am just wowed with today's level of pool. It felt like some of my opponents were playing straight pool. They weren't winning a game and then following it up with an occasional break and run. They would go on tears were a lot of racks would melt by in a row without me having anything to say about it. In my first match I went from 2-0 ahead to 7-2 down without anything beyond a kick, and in my last match I went from 2-2 to 11-2 loser with just one awkward layout to attempt. Race to 11 sounds like a serious set and it's remarkable how quickly you can be shut out.

The largest thing that stood out was the number of strong young players. I played Klenti Kaci first round, I will comment more on the thread Jam started about him. Then there is Filler. And Salim up and coming. And many more that I haven't really had the pleasure to have watched. ALL of them are doing things on the table that I hadn't seen from anyone shy of the absolute elite in years past. I'm talking Ralf, SVB, etc.

How did this happen?

As players we moved to the diamond tables with fast blue cloth somewhere around 15 years ago. Alex and Ralf were at the top of the game, but hey hadn't grown up on that equipment, they had simply switched to it. SVB was the first player that came along that kind of grew up on it. He found a way to play that equipment that I hadn't seen before, starting with the break but just taking it to the next level overall. His big break out year was 2006 and in 07/08 he won everything in sight. This also happened at a time when high speed internet was global and for the first time everyone could see what this top play looked like. SVB was being watched all over the world.

So here we are, 10 years later, and guess what? All the 8-14 year old kids that started playing then all grew up watching Shane and the new bar was set. Now these same kids are 18-24 and they are all doing the things he is doing. Breaking like absolute monsters. Composed. Fearless. Straight shooting. High level patterns. Great safeties and kicks. Clutch jump shots.

We all know that pool has gotten tougher. What's amazing to me is how quickly it did. I have literally seen it change in real time. From 2005 to 2011 to 2017 the game has changed. It's spectacular. It's breathtaking. And it's only going to get stronger as the 18-24 year olds gain another 5 years experience!

It's a little bittersweet that the day comes when I tip my hat and concede that there is a level out there I can't achieve. But the wheel keeps turning and all I can do is have fun trying to learn from them and gasp along trying to keep up. And in the meantime I'm going to have a heck of a lot of fun sweating some amazing, amazing pool.
 
Tin Man said:
I had a few years off since I've played the US Open. Last time I played there was a $500 entry fee. I jumped back in this year and it was a totally different animal then my previous trips.

In general I am just wowed with today's level of pool. It felt like some of my opponents were playing straight pool. They weren't winning a game and then following it up with an occasional break and run. They would go on tears were a lot of racks would melt by in a row without me having anything to say about it. In my first match I went from 2-0 ahead to 7-2 down without anything beyond a kick, and in my last match I went from 2-2 to 11-2 loser with just one awkward layout to attempt. Race to 11 sounds like a serious set and it's remarkable how quickly you can be shut out.

The largest thing that stood out was the number of strong young players. I played Klenti Kaci first round, I will comment more on the thread Jam started about him. Then there is Filler. And Salim up and coming. And many more that I haven't really had the pleasure to have watched. ALL of them are doing things on the table that I hadn't seen from anyone shy of the absolute elite in years past. I'm talking Ralf, SVB, etc.

How did this happen?

As players we moved to the diamond tables with fast blue cloth somewhere around 15 years ago. Alex and Ralf were at the top of the game, but hey hadn't grown up on that equipment, they had simply switched to it. SVB was the first player that came along that kind of grew up on it. He found a way to play that equipment that I hadn't seen before, starting with the break but just taking it to the next level overall. His big break out year was 2006 and in 07/08 he won everything in sight. This also happened at a time when high speed internet was global and for the first time everyone could see what this top play looked like. SVB was being watched all over the world.

So here we are, 10 years later, and guess what? All the 8-14 year old kids that started playing then all grew up watching Shane and the new bar was set. Now these same kids are 18-24 and they are all doing the things he is doing. Breaking like absolute monsters. Composed. Fearless. Straight shooting. High level patterns. Great safeties and kicks. Clutch jump shots.

We all know that pool has gotten tougher. What's amazing to me is how quickly it did. I have literally seen it change in real time. From 2005 to 2011 to 2017 the game has changed. It's spectacular. It's breathtaking. And it's only going to get stronger as the 18-24 year olds gain another 5 years experience!

It's a little bittersweet that the day comes when I tip my hat and concede that there is a level out there I can't achieve. But the wheel keeps turning and all I can do is have fun trying to learn from them and gasp along trying to keep up. And in the meantime I'm going to have a heck of a lot of fun sweating some amazing, amazing pool.
Click to expand...

Greenie for you sir. Great post and a spot on perspective. Apparently pool, at least on that level, is not dead. The young guns are learning to play somewhere.
 
Looks like you won a couple matches.
I always enjoy your take on the game.
Cool that you are able to have time to
get in the mix at an event like that.
That field is insane!
Enjoy yourself and report back.
 
awesome post from an up close perspective. As someone who has seen it and competed against it, how do you see the next generation of US players stacking up....not necessarily the "established" young guns like Skyler, Justin, and Thorpe. Are there any young americans out there who you see making their presence felt in the next few years? Thanks for sharing your experience!
 
Thanks guys. It was a fun trip for sure and it isn't over yet.

It's funny, I joked with my friend and said 'you know, it used to be when I played an 18 year old I'd think "I have an experience edge"'. HAHAHAHA. Good thing I have a job!
 
jokrswylde said:
awesome post from an up close perspective. As someone who has seen it and competed against it, how do you see the next generation of US players stacking up....not necessarily the "established" young guns like Skyler, Justin, and Thorpe. Are there any young americans out there who you see making their presence felt in the next few years? Thanks for sharing your experience!
Click to expand...

Sergio Rivas, Chris Robinson, Josh Roberts, Shane McMinn, Drake Nieopetter
 
Rhea said:
Sergio Rivas, Chris Robinson, Josh Roberts, Shane McMinn, Drake Nieopetter
Click to expand...

They arent kids. The Hanson's are kids.Darn good players,and super nice people.


Thanks Tinman for the great report. I only hope the players learn the value of "reasonable" pace of play. Watch the pro snooker players if you dont understand what I am talking about.
 
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There's only one way to develop the skills that some of these players have achieved- because you HAVE TO.

What I mean is this. If you're practicing in your basement, robbing local weekly tournaments, and giving up spots to amateurs, you simply won't be pushed. Sure, you can watch the greats on the screen and tell yourself to keep trying to get better. But it doesn't push you enough.

Suddenly you get in the ring and you're fighting for survival. Now it's no longer a quaint 'someday I would like to play better', it's a 'I need to find a way to win NOW!' The survival instincts kick in, the adrenaline starts flowing, sometimes you falter, but sometimes you find something inside that you didn't know you had. You evolve into a different species that is capable of doing new things on the table. Because you HAD TO.

Then you go back home and practice harder because you know you'll be in that spot again, that getting better isn't some abstract idea, that it's going to be for survival in another match coming up very soon.

What am I trying to say? Greatness takes regular exposure to the highest levels of play in the world. A combination of the heart to keep getting in the ring, enough discipline to drill and work out and keep your nose clean, and enough courage to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

The challenge our players face is whether they'll have enough opportunities to get in the ring. I know we have the heart. The discipline isn't always easy, but again this can stem from a lack of being pushed. I think that if some of our best young players such as Sky and Billy could continue to play events like this they could get there. If they play just in the US though and do this once a year I think it would be very difficult.

Unfortunately we don't have an organized tour and our tournament payouts are weak. If we had more tournaments strong enough to draw international talent and our players got to compete more regularly I think we'd get there. If they only come here a few times a year and we don't leave our shores I'm not sure it adds up.

Long story short, yes, we have the talent. We have the heart. We have the game. The question is if we have enough at bats.
 
Tin Man said:
There's only one way to develop the skills that some of these players have achieved- because you HAVE TO.

What I mean is this. If you're practicing in your basement, robbing local weekly tournaments, and giving up spots to amateurs, you simply won't be pushed. Sure, you can watch the greats on the screen and tell yourself to keep trying to get better. But it doesn't push you enough.

Suddenly you get in the ring and you're fighting for survival. Now it's no longer a quaint 'someday I would like to play better', it's a 'I need to find a way to win NOW!' The survival instincts kick in, the adrenaline starts flowing, sometimes you falter, but sometimes you find something inside that you didn't know you had. You evolve into a different species that is capable of doing new things on the table. Because you HAD TO.

Then you go back home and practice harder because you know you'll be in that spot again, that getting better isn't some abstract idea, that it's going to be for survival in another match coming up very soon.

What am I trying to say? Greatness takes regular exposure to the highest levels of play in the world. A combination of the heart to keep getting in the ring, enough discipline to drill and work out and keep your nose clean, and enough courage to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

The challenge our players face is whether they'll have enough opportunities to get in the ring. I know we have the heart. The discipline isn't always easy, but again this can stem from a lack of being pushed. I think that if some of our best young players such as Sky and Billy could continue to play events like this they could get there. If they play just in the US though and do this once a year I think it would be very difficult.

Unfortunately we don't have an organized tour and our tournament payouts are weak. If we had more tournaments strong enough to draw international talent and our players got to compete more regularly I think we'd get there. If they only come here a few times a year and we don't leave our shores I'm not sure it adds up.

Long story short, yes, we have the talent. We have the heart. We have the game. The question is if we have enough at bats.
Click to expand...

Watch Ronnie's interview after winning this last snooker trnmnt. He says what you say. You play great because you have to.
 
Tin Man said:
There's only one way to develop the skills that some of these players have achieved- because you HAVE TO.

What I mean is this. If you're practicing in your basement, robbing local weekly tournaments, and giving up spots to amateurs, you simply won't be pushed. Sure, you can watch the greats on the screen and tell yourself to keep trying to get better. But it doesn't push you enough.

Suddenly you get in the ring and you're fighting for survival. Now it's no longer a quaint 'someday I would like to play better', it's a 'I need to find a way to win NOW!' The survival instincts kick in, the adrenaline starts flowing, sometimes you falter, but sometimes you find something inside that you didn't know you had. You evolve into a different species that is capable of doing new things on the table. Because you HAD TO.

Then you go back home and practice harder because you know you'll be in that spot again, that getting better isn't some abstract idea, that it's going to be for survival in another match coming up very soon.

What am I trying to say? Greatness takes regular exposure to the highest levels of play in the world. A combination of the heart to keep getting in the ring, enough discipline to drill and work out and keep your nose clean, and enough courage to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

The challenge our players face is whether they'll have enough opportunities to get in the ring. I know we have the heart. The discipline isn't always easy, but again this can stem from a lack of being pushed. I think that if some of our best young players such as Sky and Billy could continue to play events like this they could get there. If they play just in the US though and do this once a year I think it would be very difficult.

Unfortunately we don't have an organized tour and our tournament payouts are weak. If we had more tournaments strong enough to draw international talent and our players got to compete more regularly I think we'd get there. If they only come here a few times a year and we don't leave our shores I'm not sure it adds up.

Long story short, yes, we have the talent. We have the heart. We have the game. The question is if we have enough at bats.
Click to expand...

You can have all the talent in the world. Unfortunately in the end, it takes spectators first, then with spectators comes ticket and merchandise sales, then comes sponsors who pay to advertise to all the spectators.

Until someone figures out a way to make pool a spectator sport within the U.S., you'll never have big payouts and big tournaments here.
 
Good post. Young players now have better training, fundamentals and strokes. Kaci played snooker I heard on the stream. Shaw also with snooker stance. April Larson, great mechanics that enable straight shooting. Starting young with good training is a godsend.

Also growing up with low deflection shafts.
 
poolscholar said:
Good post. Young players now have better training, fundamentals and strokes. Kaci played snooker I heard on the stream. Shaw also with snooker stance. April Larson, great mechanics that enable straight shooting. Starting young with good training is a godsend.

Also growing up with low deflection shafts.
Click to expand...

Low deflection play differant,not necessarily better.
 
Tin Man said:
There's only one way to develop the skills that some of these players have achieved- because you HAVE TO.

What I mean is this. If you're practicing in your basement, robbing local weekly tournaments, and giving up spots to amateurs, you simply won't be pushed. Sure, you can watch the greats on the screen and tell yourself to keep trying to get better. But it doesn't push you enough.

Suddenly you get in the ring and you're fighting for survival. Now it's no longer a quaint 'someday I would like to play better', it's a 'I need to find a way to win NOW!' The survival instincts kick in, the adrenaline starts flowing, sometimes you falter, but sometimes you find something inside that you didn't know you had. You evolve into a different species that is capable of doing new things on the table. Because you HAD TO.

Then you go back home and practice harder because you know you'll be in that spot again, that getting better isn't some abstract idea, that it's going to be for survival in another match coming up very soon.

What am I trying to say? Greatness takes regular exposure to the highest levels of play in the world. A combination of the heart to keep getting in the ring, enough discipline to drill and work out and keep your nose clean, and enough courage to take the opportunity when it presents itself.

The challenge our players face is whether they'll have enough opportunities to get in the ring. I know we have the heart. The discipline isn't always easy, but again this can stem from a lack of being pushed. I think that if some of our best young players such as Sky and Billy could continue to play events like this they could get there. If they play just in the US though and do this once a year I think it would be very difficult.

Unfortunately we don't have an organized tour and our tournament payouts are weak. If we had more tournaments strong enough to draw international talent and our players got to compete more regularly I think we'd get there. If they only come here a few times a year and we don't leave our shores I'm not sure it adds up.

Long story short, yes, we have the talent. We have the heart. We have the game. The question is if we have enough at bats.
Click to expand...

All good stuff Tin Man. These days if a player wants to be serious about professional pool he must be willing and able to play worldwide. That's where the bigger events (and money) take place. So far only Shane has made that effort in the last ten years.
 
Great post Tin Man. I wish more of the older players would admit that there are way more great players today than the few like Hall, Segal, and Archer. Just look at the best players 15 or more years ago in tournaments. They missed too many shots a game...most they never should have tried. Very few real good safety players back then. And they had bigger pockets to fire at. Johnnyt
 
jay helfert said:
All good stuff Tin Man. These days if a player wants to be serious about professional pool he must be willing and able to play worldwide. That's where the bigger events (and money) take place. So far only Shane has made that effort in the last ten years.
Click to expand...

Although he is no where near shane. I think Hunter Lombardo could get an honorable mention.
 
There is a plenty more really strong young players. They just can't get to competitions. They lack sponsors. One Finnish Young gun was there also this year. He won couple matches. Destroyed Ralf Souquet. Lost to Chang Yu Lung 9-11 and Bergman 8-11.
He is 20 years old and his 9-ball run out record is 12. 14.1 high run 198... pretty sick!
 
couldnthinkof01...While Tin Man may not play at SVB's level (who does?), he certainly plays very strong...much better than you...and he is a full-time working man (and a smart one to boot, knowing that making a living playing pool is next to impossible). He speaks the truth.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

couldnthinkof01 said:
Although he is no where near shane. I think Hunter Lombardo could get an honorable mention.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
couldnthinkof01...While Tin Man may not play at SVB's level (who does?), he certainly plays very strong...much better than you...and he is a full-time working man (and a smart one to boot, knowing that making a living playing pool is next to impossible). He speaks the truth.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Easy Scott.

For one thing, I know, have played against, and watched Demi play hundreds of times. I respect his game, work ethic, and determination more than YOU or he has any idea!

For another I quoted Jay. He was speaking on americans traveling overseas to big tournaments. I ADDED Hunter also travels to some.

AND THAT SIR, IS TRUTH
 
Johnnyt said:
Great post Tin Man. I wish more of the older players would admit that there are way more great players today than the few like Hall, Segal, and Archer. Just look at the best players 15 or more years ago in tournaments. They missed too many shots a game...most they never should have tried. Very few real good safety players back then. And they had bigger pockets to fire at. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

I agree that there are many more top caliber players today than there were in, say, the 1980's, but I disagree that the best players of that era didn't play at the same level as the top players today. I'm talking about the very top players, like Sigel, Strickland, Reyes, Parica, Hall, and Varner. Sigel went entire tournaments where his TPA was over .900, so I think an idea that those great players "missed too many shots a game" is just patently false.
 
Tin Man said:
I had a few years off since I've played the US Open. Last time I played there was a $500 entry fee. I jumped back in this year and it was a totally different animal then my previous trips.

In general I am just wowed with today's level of pool. It felt like some of my opponents were playing straight pool. They weren't winning a game and then following it up with an occasional break and run. They would go on tears were a lot of racks would melt by in a row without me having anything to say about it. In my first match I went from 2-0 ahead to 7-2 down without anything beyond a kick, and in my last match I went from 2-2 to 11-2 loser with just one awkward layout to attempt. Race to 11 sounds like a serious set and it's remarkable how quickly you can be shut out.

The largest thing that stood out was the number of strong young players. I played Klenti Kaci first round, I will comment more on the thread Jam started about him. Then there is Filler. And Salim up and coming. And many more that I haven't really had the pleasure to have watched. ALL of them are doing things on the table that I hadn't seen from anyone shy of the absolute elite in years past. I'm talking Ralf, SVB, etc.

How did this happen?

As players we moved to the diamond tables with fast blue cloth somewhere around 15 years ago. Alex and Ralf were at the top of the game, but hey hadn't grown up on that equipment, they had simply switched to it. SVB was the first player that came along that kind of grew up on it. He found a way to play that equipment that I hadn't seen before, starting with the break but just taking it to the next level overall. His big break out year was 2006 and in 07/08 he won everything in sight. This also happened at a time when high speed internet was global and for the first time everyone could see what this top play looked like. SVB was being watched all over the world.

So here we are, 10 years later, and guess what? All the 8-14 year old kids that started playing then all grew up watching Shane and the new bar was set. Now these same kids are 18-24 and they are all doing the things he is doing. Breaking like absolute monsters. Composed. Fearless. Straight shooting. High level patterns. Great safeties and kicks. Clutch jump shots.

We all know that pool has gotten tougher. What's amazing to me is how quickly it did. I have literally seen it change in real time. From 2005 to 2011 to 2017 the game has changed. It's spectacular. It's breathtaking. And it's only going to get stronger as the 18-24 year olds gain another 5 years experience!

It's a little bittersweet that the day comes when I tip my hat and concede that there is a level out there I can't achieve. But the wheel keeps turning and all I can do is have fun trying to learn from them and gasp along trying to keep up. And in the meantime I'm going to have a heck of a lot of fun sweating some amazing, amazing pool.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming ur d jatis? Idk you personally but I know of Brandon Shuff lol n I know and have played Kevin west and you beat both of them so I can only assume you yourself are a very skilled player that could compete with most pros on any given day. And you say you've taken years off so basically you probably have the talent to play like the best of the best of very close especially had you played straight thru the same amount of hours these other guys are putting in. Idk what I'm getting at besides thanks for the post and I'll be looking for you in the future
 
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