Clearly you don't know much about 10 ball if you think it is just one extra ball. The rack plays totally different. Yes, you can trick it a bit to help which is what I said Shane was doing for quite some time when I was shown exactly what he does. However even with that it still is tough to just make it a super easy run out table every time.
SVB cheating? Shaw/SVB Derby 9 Ball
- Thread starter sid98
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Clearly you don't know much about 10 ball if you think it is just one extra ball. The rack plays totally different. Yes, you can trick it a bit to help which is what I said Shane was doing for quite some time when I was shown exactly what he does. However even with that it still is tough to just make it a super easy run out table every time.
Let's make it really difficult.
Rack all 15 balls, like rotation.
After the break, remove any balls higher than the 9 ball.
Rack all 15 balls, like rotation.
After the break, remove any balls higher than the 9 ball.
No kidding. It's a complete joke that pros are playing this game.
LOL.
You think a magic(or similar) rack cannot be manipulated? It's actually even easier to get controlled gaps with very small touches. You need to know what to look for to see it, but the pros got all the moves, feathering the one, pushing the back balls up in 10 ball etc...It's a joke what pool has become.
I cannot for the life of me understand what is wrong with playing straight rotation? It's a great game, much more fair, interesting and skillful than both 9 and 10 ball. It produces some of the best all around players on the planet. Why do you think the Pinoys are killing everyone? They play rotation, which means they've got all the skills and knowledge they need to play any pool game well. It's got a power break, banks, combinations, caroms, you name it. And you get points for pocketing balls, which means that every ball actually matters.
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Here's the photo of the rack that Jason Shaw took.
Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets. This is a dead wing ball into the corner. Just spend the $20 and you'll see why. Most people should accept this rack if your opponent racked for you and you know where to break from. People always gave Mike Dechaine crap about his rack, but it looks like SVB is doing it too. To be fair though, I'm pretty sure all pros know how to rack and wire in a dead wing ball.
I it cheating? Yes, by the rules it actually is. You can't really prove it, but it is.
This is what pool has become: "Pros" taking advantages of a loophole in the rules to try to make a lucky carnival novelty game somewhat skillful and knowledge based. It's a hustlers game. If you don't want to be the sucker, you must be the hustler.
This is why I no longer play 9 ball.
While I agree that 9 ball has become more of a drill for professionals, the amateur crowd still needs alot of skill to compete at 9 ball. Just because we can wire in a ball off the snap does not mean that we will run out the rack. Amateurs still have gaps in execution and knowledge in other aspects than just the break. Such as proper patterns, safties, kicks, execution, etc.
I enjoy 9 ball because I have the knowledge to know where balls go off the break, but am still maybe 50/50 to run out a moderately difficult spread. Comes down to execution for me and what I suspect is the majority of the amateur crowd. Still challenging for the non-professionals. To deny that would mean the person is playing 9 ball at pro speed.
Mike dechaine got crap because he wouldn't freeze balls for opponent so the wing ball never went.
He made sure both L trains had flaws and even told Shaw during a turning stone finals you'll never make the wing ball.
Switch to Jayson racking for Shane, like he did in the finals of turning stone 28, and this is what happens.....
https://youtu.be/Iq_KZvz6QYA
Shane won 13 to 4 making the wing ball a ton with Jayson giving him Jayson approved racks.
I'm not saying Shane is an angel with the racks, but freezing the front 3 balls and the back ball behind the wing is not cheating. he clearly was "on" today and was going to win regardless.
Oh I definitely agree with you here. Knowledge of the rack is one thing, but the angle you break from, the speed you break with, and the timing of your swing is all skill and knowledge separate from just the gaps in the rack. SVB knows how to break with out a doubt.
Funny thing with SVB at the DCC is that it looked like it was his execution in his shots that looked off to me. He was rattling in balls and hanging them from all over. Jeremy Jones was commenting on SVB's stroke and mentioned that it was more of a punch stroke than a smooth stroke. JJ said the only way to maintain that punch stroke timing is through hitting a ton of balls and it looks like SVB was a little off. Still good enough to get that far, but we all have to admit that it was a different looking SVB out there. Again though, only in my opinion.
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True, but it's gonna be hard to have 4 balls hit the rail.... lolThat’s the loosest rack I’ve ever seen....
Agree 100%. In the pro game there have been many attempts to deal with the 9 ball break in recent years - 1 on the spot, 9 on the spot, break outside the box, break inside the box, 3 point rule, changing how many balls need to hit a rail, etc. Add to that the fact that players DO rack the balls advantageously when it is rack your own - it's more than reasonable to ask questions regarding the suitability of the game at this level.
IMO, the only world championships should be 8, 10 and 14.1. 9 ball is still a great game and would remain the rotation game of choice for the amateur player. The fact is that all the pros are so good at 9 ball, that players of the calibre of Shaw and SVB almost have to fix the rack to gain an advantage.
Very interesting. They would explain the crucial misses against Morra that cost him in the semifinals. I've noticed Shane's fundamentals have grown more unconventional over the years. That hitch in his elbow on the backstroke and right before the punch might get in the way when he gets tired/fatigued and or pressurized. I look forward to watching the replay especially if Jeremy Jones is commentating.
The rules in almost all pool organizations I've ever seen is that the rack is supposed to be as tightly frozen as possible. If positioning the rack on a certain area on the spot creates a very frozen rack, and positioning it slightly elsewhere also on the spot creates a favorable gap, then it is certainly cheating if the player does the second thing on purpose, knowing they could have had a frozen rack instead. It's a slightly challenging philosophical concept, but a 100% black and white and incontestable one.
KMRUNOUT
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You are mistaken on three counts.
1) the is no reason to assume that Shaw gave him a totally frozen rack from what you have said.
2) Shane most certainly did not hit them dead square. He used a cut break.
3) shane makes the wing ball because he does the break a person would do for a well frozen rack, not because he breaks like a monster.
KMRUNOUT
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Only at soft speed if hit square. Shane cut broke at that time marker. If you use a magic rack and break from the box, hit the front ball dead square and hard, no it does not go. With respect I'll take Joe Tucker's opinion over yours or Cardigans or anyone else's in this thread.
KMRUNOUT
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Incorrect. You are oversimplifying. Grab a magic rack, freeze them up good, and smash the rack square from well inside the box. Watch the corner ball hit about 4" up the side rail. Please try that before replying with contention.
KMRUNOUT
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Anybody who "intentionally" leaves desired gaps in the rack is cheating.
I play a guy every weekend who constantly does it. Every time you bust him on it, he says he is doing it "because is trying not to make a ball".
Have you ever heard a cheater with a better reason?
I play a guy every weekend who constantly does it. Every time you bust him on it, he says he is doing it "because is trying not to make a ball".
Have you ever heard a cheater with a better reason?
Reading through this thread, I am floored by the level of ignorance about the rack that is displayed. I'm even more amazed how many people seem to think they know something, and speak out as if they do, when they so obviously don't. Ignorance and misinformation will perpetuate this problem.
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It doesn't get simpler or more accurate thank this. Good post.
KMRUNOUT
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