APA needs to step it up

[cardiac kid]

Jude,

Here's my take. Play ACS and VNEA as well as BCAPL. Gave up on APA. Our local room has ten 7' diamonds and nine 7' Valley Panthers. If you properly set up and maintain a Valley, it will play every bit a well as a Diamond.

Also believe a few of the things that ruin league pool are Diamond tables, Simonis 860 cloth, Aramith / Cyclop pool balls and the associated cue balls. Actually enjoy playing VNEA because of the mandatory Valley cue ball. Sometimes you never know where it will go.

This is BAR POOL. Every bar I went to for years had table rolls, grass for cloth and either the weighted cue ball or the big cue ball. Too many of us seem to forget the bar pool thing. If perfection is what you want, stick to big table professional pool or go solely to the BCA's and the SBE. League pool is still mainly about socializing.

Finally, Gary Benson and his crew seem to do a great job setting up the 250 or so tables. There are always going to be a few that slip through the cracks. Found in the past, telling the High Country people about a "bad" table gets it fixed quickly. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!

Lyn

 

[Runnintable]

Tables

I watched the high skill level 8Ball finals with Jeannett Lee and the other commentator.
I forget his name.
He mentioned they get the tables from a company that is hired to bring them in and set them up. I would guess they have some contract, could be for a period of time and hopefully specifies to the 'T' what equipment is utilized in contract.

APA does two big events that I know of :

1. events
2. 1. Singles/ doubles....
3. 2. Team Chanpionships/Masters...

The contractor most likely uses same tables....what does the APA specify as standard equipment?
Do they replace tables as they get too beat up?

 

[cardiac kid]

I watched the high skill level 8Ball finals with Jeannett Lee and the other commentator.
I forget his name.
He mentioned they get the tables from a company that is hired to bring them in and set them up. I would guess they have some contract, could be for a period of time and hopefully specifies to the 'T' what equipment is utilized in contract.

APA does two big events that I know of :

1. events
2. 1. Singles/ doubles....
3. 2. Team Chanpionships/Masters...

The contractor most likely uses same tables....what does the APA specify as standard equipment?
Do they replace tables as they get too beat up?

Runnin...

My earlier post stated that Gary Benson and High Country Promotions supply the tables for both the APA singles and team events. They also supply the tables for ACS and VNEA nationals for sure. Don't know who TAP uses. My guess is it changes with each location. BCAPL uses Bad Boys Productions for the Diamonds.

Lyn

 

[the2yoots]

Here's my take on the APA
if you wanna go out once or twice a week to play in a league, APA is suited for you. If you're a serious player, like I was, when I was in the APA, I felt I was wasting my time.......
TO play all season, win, and make it to vegas, to play on worn cloth, with plastic racks and unlevel tables.....etc.
I was furious, that I wasted all my hard earned money, playing in that league,to take time off from work, to finally make to Vegas, and end up playing on crap equipment.
Never again

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Here's my take on the APA
if you wanna go out once or twice a week to play in a league, APA is suited for you. If you're a serious player, like I was, when I was in the APA, I felt I was wasting my time.......
TO play all season, win, and make it to vegas, to play on worn cloth, with plastic racks and unlevel tables.....etc.
I was furious, that I wasted all my hard earned money, playing in that league,to take time off from work, to finally make to Vegas, and end up playing on crap equipment.
Never again

This is precisely how I feel. To reiterate, I don't think the tables "play tough". Tough is when the cloth is old and the pockets are tight. I saw outright defective equipment. Mind you, this wasn't all the time but I encountered enough defective tables to believe a substantial percentage of all tables were not calibrated correctly.

I know a bunch here are going to say never play APA again. That's an obvious solution. The thing is, I enjoy it. I like my team. I like my division. Wednesday nights are a treat for me. Here in Austin, many of the top players in the area also play APA so we have our healthy not-so-serious rivalries on APA night. I also think the APA does a great job on the local level and has a business model that should be examined and copied.

That said, they majorly drop the ball come Vegas. I want to support them primarily because I believe the APA mission is the only one working to bring in new players and I'm all about being a part of that. However, it would be nice if they also thought about the serious players and accommodated them with good equipment.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Runnin...

My earlier post stated that Gary Benson and High Country Promotions supply the tables for both the APA singles and team events. They also supply the tables for ACS and VNEA nationals for sure. Don't know who TAP uses. My guess is it changes with each location. BCAPL uses Bad Boys Productions for the Diamonds.

Lyn

BadBoy also handles the BCAPL Texas State Championships and they do a stand-up job. I've got nothing but warm fuzzies for those guys.

 

[Celophanewrap]

This is precisely how I feel. To reiterate, I don't think the tables "play tough". Tough is when the cloth is old and the pockets are tight. I saw outright defective equipment. Mind you, this wasn't all the time but I encountered enough defective tables to believe a substantial percentage of all tables were not calibrated correctly.

I know a bunch here are going to say never play APA again. That's an obvious solution. The thing is, I enjoy it. I like my team. I like my division. Wednesday nights are a treat for me. Here in Austin, many of the top players in the area also play APA so we have our healthy not-so-serious rivalries on APA night. I also think the APA does a great job on the local level and has a business model that should be examined and copied.

That said, they majorly drop the ball come Vegas. I want to support them primarily because I believe the APA mission is the only one working to bring in new players and I'm all about being a part of that. However, it would be nice if they also thought about the serious players and accommodated them with good equipment.

Remember that The APA can best be described as a recreational league, something
geared more toward the beginner to low intermediate player. Most serious players
sort of graduate to other leagues or tournaments. They reach a stage where The APA
is no longer beneficial to them as a player, so they move on and play real pool.
It is what it is and it's not for everyone. "The2yoots" I think did it right, he played in the
APA until he was done with it, then he realized exactly what it is and he moved on.

See, the really good thing is that you're not under contract or obligated to play in the
APA whatsoever, you can leave at anytime. If you're still here and playing on what you
consider to be substandard equipment and having the equipment beat you every time out,
then it's because you want to. You have free will, you can just quit.

Hell, maybe your whole team is ready for a bigger challenge.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Consistent equipment matters! With some warm up time on a table (and I don't know if you got any) you should be able to get a read for the table pretty quick. Those Valley tables probably play different than the Valleys at most bars, and they sure as hell play different than the 9' Bruswicks we shot on for APA at all but one location. Everyone has to adjust. Nothing wrong with you not wanting to go back, but I am sure you aren't the only one that had issues. If they are that bad adjust your game to only go one rail and not have as good of position or play safe instead of trying to get position on the opposite end of the table.

Some of the adjustments are incredibly difficult to figure out. Like, this cue ball was substantially lighter which basically meant stunning the ball meant hitting the cue ball a little high, but not too high because then it follows. One failed stun and you shy away from it altogether. Except, you can't roll everything in because the table isn't level. Eventually it starts feeling like a carnival game.

 

[gregnice37]

I haven't played APA in about 10-12 years. I do however play in the UPA now for the last 4 years when I got back into pool. They do the whole Vegas thing if you want to partake in it but it's unnecessary. Instead of playing each session to make it to states and tricups to get to Vegas, each session in the UPA has cash payouts. Plus it's not slop. Much more fun IMO.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Don't understand why any one would set up tables the way you describe. I just played four tournaments in 6 weeks. Two different vendors, all Valley tables. Ridgeback rails, Mercury ultra cloth, tables were set up level and played great. Fast for a Valley, and very consistent, every table played the same. Valleys are pretty basic, average hacker can make them play well.

 

[jimmyco]

FWIW, I have played on some less than perfect Diamonds.

BTW, congrats to your lady.

 

[CreeDo]

It's not just the APA that's guilty of this. I remember going to a VNEA national event and noticing the exact same thing you did... the cloth ran insanely long, to the point where I couldn't get a 3 railer to go into the corner no matter how low I hit, unless I hit pretty firmly. You'd see something like this - https://pad.chalkysticks.com/e2197.png

Having diamonds is of course nicer but the ones I saw recently at valley forge were so fast that players were overrunning shape by a mile.

I'm wondering if there's a reasonable compromise where players don't need to be on brand new, unfamiliar cloth. Nobody wants to play on beat up tables but maybe there's a way to reuse tables from one year top the next... not indefinitely, just enough to break them in.

 

[trob]

It's not just the APA that's guilty of this. I remember going to a VNEA national event and noticing the exact same thing you did... the cloth ran insanely long, to the point where I couldn't get a 3 railer to go into the corner no matter how low I hit, unless I hit pretty firmly. You'd see something like this - https://pad.chalkysticks.com/e2197.png

Having diamonds is of course nicer but the ones I saw recently at valley forge were so fast that players were overrunning shape by a mile.

I'm wondering if there's a reasonable compromise where players don't need to be on brand new, unfamiliar cloth. Nobody wants to play on beat up tables but maybe there's a way to reuse tables from one year top the next... not indefinitely, just enough to break them in.

Smh part of being a good player is adjusting to the table. If a table is fairly level and the rails aren’t completely shot you should be able to adjust your game. If your over running position because the table is fast that’s a you problem not a table problem

 

[dr9ball]

I understand in theory, one could argue that both players are subjected to the same equipment so it shouldn’t matter. Like if this were a football game, both teams have to deal with the snow. In pool, it really does matter. There’s a difference between tough equipment and unpredictable equipment. Tough means your strategy must adjust. Unpredictable means you scratched because your cueball is two diamonds off on a routine route.

I mean, if you feel differently, that’s fine. We all have different expectations when we travel for tournaments and mine are pretty high. I won’t go back until they switch to Diamond. I wouldn’t play on those tables if they were down the street, let alone a thousand miles away.

So many table options and you're going to hold out because your favorite brand isn't selected. If the tables aren't playing "right" I understand. Red Label Diamonds bank short compared to the Gold Crowns I'm used to playing on. I hate them. The blue label Diamonds i've played on are excellent tables.

You are on to something if pool were played like NASCAR, everyone has to play with the same cue (same deflection properties) same balls, same tables and cloth, rails etc.) We could have the IROC of Pool... of course that won't happen because people make choices for their own businesses and don't allow themselves to be forced to use one piece of equipment.

 

[APA Operator]

Consistency in the equipment (tables, balls, cloth) is the desired standard today, no doubt. But what if it wasn't? What if pool was more like golf, where every single hole on every single course is different? What if some tables had more or fewer than six pockets, or the dimensions were different, or the rails not aligned to a rectangular grid? What if the playing surface had intentional 'slope' to make gravity a factor? Would the game be more or less fun? Would the very best players today still be the very best players then? Would pool tables be less expensive if they didn't all have to meet such rigid standards?

I don't play darts and I don't bowl because those games seem to be too 'basic'. Throw a dart or roll a ball from a specific distance and hit your target, that's all. Pool has some extra factors, like what happens after you hit your target and how hard should you hit it? There are also factors like other balls on the table that sometimes force you to be creative. It's enough to keep many people interested, but would more variation produce better granularity in individual players' abilties, thus making them able to observe even very small improvements and be continually encouraged, like golf? Would it make pool more entertaining for spectators, which IMO is what's needed to really grow the sport?

Even in a game like golf, though, at the competitive level there are standards expected from those who provide and maintain the courses - things like smooth greens that roll at a decent pace, for example, or bunkers that are playable, or grass where there is supposed to be grass. Pool would be the same. But maybe relaxing the vertical and horizontal constraints would be good for the sport.

This is just a thought that's been in my mind for a long time. It is not intended to be a defense for failure to meet what are today's standards. I'm not debating whether those standards were met or not, just offering a "what if?" scenario.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Consistency in the equipment (tables, balls, cloth) is the desired standard today, no doubt. But what if it wasn't? What if pool was more like golf, where every single hole on every single course is different? What if some tables had more or fewer than six pockets, or the dimensions were different, or the rails not aligned to a rectangular grid? What if the playing surface had intentional 'slope' to make gravity a factor? Would the game be more or less fun? Would the very best players today still be the very best players then? Would pool tables be less expensive if they didn't all have to meet such rigid standards?

I don't play darts and I don't bowl because those games seem to be too 'basic'. Throw a dart or roll a ball from a specific distance and hit your target, that's all. Pool has some extra factors, like what happens after you hit your target and how hard should you hit it? There are also factors like other balls on the table that sometimes force you to be creative. It's enough to keep many people interested, but would more variation produce better granularity in individual players' abilties, thus making them able to observe even very small improvements and be continually encouraged, like golf? Would it make pool more entertaining for spectators, which IMO is what's needed to really grow the sport?

Even in a game like golf, though, at the competitive level there are standards expected from those who provide and maintain the courses - things like smooth greens that roll at a decent pace, for example, or bunkers that are playable, or grass where there is supposed to be grass. Pool would be the same. But maybe relaxing the vertical and horizontal constraints would be good for the sport.

This is just a thought that's been in my mind for a long time. It is not intended to be a defense for failure to meet what are today's standards. I'm not debating whether those standards were met or not, just offering a "what if?" scenario.

Golf is definitely a precision game but it only involves one ball. Pool’s multi-ball nature places precision at a premium. A common cut shot can require accuracy at +/- 1/32 of an inch. The difference between perfect position and being hooked can be equally small margins. I believe most people think pool is challenging enough without introducing golf-like challenges. I think if you polled most players, dead rails, cheap balls, unlevel tables would lose every time.

 

[whammo57]

Most events I travel for, I see Super Aramith or Cyclop balls, if triangle racks are used, they’re always rigid. Cue balls are always standard size. Variance between tables is minimal. Did you not at least notice the soft plastic racks and cheap balls?

is that all you have to ***** about????

relax and play pool


Kim

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

is that all you have to ***** about????

relax and play pool


Kim

I get it. You’re a troll. Okay, have a nice day.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Jude,

Look into the TAP league, all of there national tourneys are played on Diamonds. They also go to a different city every year for nationals, which is better than seeing Vegas every year. IMHO.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Jude,

Look into the TAP league, all of there national tourneys are played on Diamonds. They also go to a different city every year for nationals, which is better than seeing Vegas every year. IMHO.

This ^^^^^^^^^ up there.

I think you should definitely take at least a few sessions away from the APA.
TAP, which I have heard is reasonably similar to The APA would probably be more to your
liking. At least the equipment would be more to your standard. Life's too short to stress
about what you think is a bad pool table. Try TAP, then everyone goes away happy