TD's Responsibilities When Asked to Judge a Potential Double Hit Shot

[nine_ball6970]

This is clearly a popular opinion, but I still fail to see the logic in being obligated to notify your opponent (the shooter) that his shot is being watched by a ref. Notifying the shooter will only give him the advantage of rethinking the shot. Why provide an advantage to your opponent if it's completely unnecessary to do so?

Calling over the referee is to cover your own butt. You're in no way obligated to cover the butt of your opponent.

If it's a matter of sportsmanship...that you want to educate your opponent of the rules...then that's a different story. But in competition, you're in no way obligated to increase your opponent's education of the rules.

Notifying your opponent gives the ref time to get to the table. Also gives ref time to look at the shot from different angles and figure out a good place to watch the shot from.

I would want to be notified. Imagine being down on the shot and someone just walks up into your line of sight.

It seems as if common courtesy is not very popular in pool these days. I would always inform my opponent if I want a shot watched and expect them to do the same.

 

[jsp]

Notifying your opponent gives the ref time to get to the table. Also gives ref time to look at the shot from different angles and figure out a good place to watch the shot from.

I would want to be notified. Imagine being down on the shot and someone just walks up into your line of sight.

I agree with both of these reasons.

But given the example in the OP, that the ref had the time to look at the shot without being in the the line of the shooter, would you still be obligated to notify the shooter that a ref is watching? If anything, one can reason that any unnecessary disruption to the shooter would be unsportsmanlike (provided the ref is already there watching the shot). In this particular case, is it really necessary for the shooter to know a ref is watching?

 

[nine_ball6970]

I agree with both of these reasons.

But given the example in the OP, that the ref had the time to look at the shot without being in the the line of the shooter, would you still be obligated to notify the shooter that a ref is watching? If anything, one can reason that any unnecessary disruption to the shooter would be unsportsmanlike (provided the ref is already there watching the shot). In this particular case, is it really necessary for the shooter to know a ref is watching?

It really depends. If someone is going to watch me shoot it, then I would want them to know things which they cannot see from behind. What if the balls are touching? Granted in this case it wouldn't make any difference because shooter has no idea what to do or not based on where the balls are but I feel ref should know that before calling good or bad.

 

[lorider]

This is clearly a popular opinion, but I still fail to see the logic in being obligated to notify your opponent (the shooter) that his shot is being watched by a ref. Notifying the shooter will only give him the advantage of rethinking the shot. Why provide an advantage to your opponent if it's completely unnecessary to do so?

Calling over the referee is to cover your own butt. You're in no way obligated to cover the butt of your opponent.

If it's a matter of sportsmanship...that you want to educate your opponent of the rules...then that's a different story. But in competition, you're in no way obligated to increase your opponent's education of the rules.

I took the time ti read your post twice to make sure I understood it correctly.

What I get from it is you think its ok to discreetly call an observer over to stand discreetly behind your opponent in order to watch a possible foul for the sake of keeping an advantage over your opponent.

What you are saying is not against any rule that I know if but it sure does not sound ethical. Its just like calling a loss on your opponent because he did not point at a hanging 8 ball before shooting it. Its obvious where it was going but since it was not called its a loss and unethical people will in fact call you on it.

 

[hang-the-9]

Of course you would explain it to them. It's as easy as saying, "if you don't make a legal hit on this shot you lose the game". We can pick at nits all day but this one seems self explanatory to me.

Koop - wouldn't be playing in a tournament if I didn't know what a 3 foul was

But if you did not know about the 3 foul rule you would not know about it to know you should know about it. That was my point. Newer players and even not so new players have a lack of knowledge about many rules. We get players in 9 ball tournaments that never played 9 ball, no idea about how to lag, how to rack even, never mind any other rule past that if a ball goes in a pocket that is a good thing. If we just played with them and called fouls left and right that would be bad for everyone.

We are not talking about regional tours where you know what you are getting into, but some local weekly handicapped event.

This is why players show up for a week then never show up again, no one takes a minute to help new players, they just want to win. Playing in the Joss tour, sure, you don't need to explain rules to players that pay $70 to enter an event. If someone pays $10 to bang balls around, it's silly to treat new players the same way.

I pretty much run one of the local tournaments every week, and every new player gets help with rules and shots there. I don't want them feeling like they walked into some closed club where we just sit around taking their money.

 

[sbpoolleague]

The BCAPL rules are by far the most comprehensive rules, and they have a robust section about refereeing shots.
I pieced together the relevant sections to cover what you experienced.
If what happened to you happened to a referee at a BCAPL event, the referee would not have made a call.

Here are the relevant BCAPL rules....

Referees will not make any calls concerning the game on the table unless they have been "properly called to the table" by a player involved in the game.
“Properly called to the table” means that the player requesting the referee’s presence has complied with the requirements of the "Stopping Play" rule (see below).
If a referee that is summoned by a player observes the player’s opponent already down on a shot, the referee will not attempt to interrupt or stop the player.

STOPPING PLAY RULE
You may stop play to request the assistance of a referee if you believe that a foul may occur or has occurred, or if you need information concerning the rules.
If you desire to stop play, you must notify your opponent and your opponent must acknowledge your request.
If it is your opponent’s inning, you must notify them before they are down on the shot.
It is a foul if you interrupt your opponent after they are down on a shot.

 

[hang-the-9]

It would absolutely drive any normal person crazy if you tried teaching them stuff in the middle of a tournament match. It’s rude and condescending. But go ahead and keep doing that to all the lesser-thanks who appreciate it.

I'd think it would be more embarrassing to look like you were some country bumpkin when every other thing you did was a foul or had some horrible outcome than being shown the rules while playing. If you were about to walk into a lion cage would you want to be stopped before you did it or be told afterward that it was a bad idea?

 

[Pacecar]

CSI rule:
1-23 Calling Fouls / Fouls Not Called 1. A foul may only be called by a player playing in the game or by a referee that has been properly called to the table.

 

[easy-e]

I'd think it would be more embarrassing to look like you were some country bumpkin when every other thing you did was a foul or had some horrible outcome than being shown the rules while playing. If you were about to walk into a lion cage would you want to be stopped before you did it or be told afterward that it was a bad idea?

We clearly play in very different types of tournaments. You like yours your way, and that’s fine with me.

 

[hang-the-9]

We clearly play in very different types of tournaments. You like yours your way, and that’s fine with me.

Well yea I said this is not the Joss tour or the US Open. I fully agree that in a bigger event you should not help or volunteer advice. When I play in events where players play every week for larger entry fees and it's organized as a real tour or event, then it is up to the players to know what they are doing. I would not tell someone I am playing in a "real" tournament how to shoot. Then it's up to them to know the rules if they are entering a "big boy" event. This question came up about a local weekly bar event or something from what I could make out, nothing major.

 

[Maniac]

Well yea I said this is not the Joss tour or the US Open.

No, but it's probably the biggest pool event that most of them are ever going to be involved with.

There are probably some players playing in the OP's tournament that, although they shouldn't, are taking this little local tournament far to serious...and, they have a right to. They paid an entry fee. They probably have illusions of grandeur about the possibility of winning the pot (however small it may be). To me, it doesn't make sense to use this tournament as a training ground for new player that didn't take the time to learn the rules of the game BEFORE they entered a tournament that other players relish the thought of winning.

I'll give you a similar example. I used to ride in a motorcycle club that gathered on Thursday nights to go for a dinner ride, usually about 25 to fifty miles one way. The club was open for everyone to join, so at some point in time one of the rider's wife decided she wanted her own bike and ride it on the rides herself. She soon bought a Honda 250 (I know, right?) and she was taught by several of us how to ride. Eventually, she went and passed the driving course and got her license. Almost immediately, she showed up to one of our dinner rides on her little "starter bike" and attempted to ride along with us.

Well, as motorcycle enthusiasts, we rarely took the path that got us to the restaurant in a straight line. We almost always took backroads with twists and turns...the more the better.

That first night she rode with us (anywhere from 12 to 20 bikes on a given evening), it was majorly evident that she wasn't up to the task. She wouldn't get her bike up past 40 m.p.h. when most of us would drive 55-60. She slowed down to a crawl on turns. As a group, we had to slow down ourselves or leave her behind. She added over an hour to our usual 3-hour night. We were all miserable after that ride.

Now, you may say that we as a group should have left a road captain with her and went off and left her. But be honest...do you think she was ready to be in that ride? Absolutely not. And, it was NOT the time or place for her to get "up to speed" and get riding experience. She SHOULD have been a lot more ready to ride before she joined us.

This local tourney we are talking about is basically the same scenario. A player that is new and not familiar with the correct rules should get a bit more seasoned before getting in the ring with other players that know the rules. It's just not fair for the educated players to have to suffer with educating a new player in the course of a match where money is involved, regardless of the amount.

Just my opinion, and I see that the opinions varying on the subject. It's good to see that the thread is still civil and has not gone to sh*t like many on this forum sometimes do.

Maniac

 

[ChrisinNC]

Agreed, the "C ranked" player that committed the double hit is in his late 60s and has most likely played pool most of his life. He's the only player here in 23 years who comes in with his pool case and accessory bag pulled on wheels like he's headed through the airport terminal. He's certainly one of the strongest C players in our ranking system, as he's capable of running most of a rack. It's hardly like he's a newbie and it's just hard for me to believe he's played pool for many years and still doesn't know what constitutes a double-hit / push illegal hit on a ball you are very close to.

If he has enough interest in continuing to play in our tournaments, he'll be back and I'll reach out to him to offer to spend time demonstrating to him so he'll clearly know what constitutes a foul, for future reference. Once he gets over his anger in regards to that incident, I'm guessing he's played in enough tournaments in here to know that I'm an honest and fair TD who is respected by all our regular tournament players, particularly in regards to fairly ranking all our players and in judging shots / making rulings as they come up, as fairly as I possibly can.

 

[jsp]

What I get from it is you think its ok to discreetly call an observer over to stand discreetly behind your opponent in order to watch a possible foul for the sake of keeping an advantage over your opponent.

What advantage?

What you are saying is not against any rule that I know if but it sure does not sound ethical. Its just like calling a loss on your opponent because he did not point at a hanging 8 ball before shooting it. Its obvious where it was going but since it was not called its a loss and unethical people will in fact call you on it.

I don't think this example is similar at all.

Think of the situation this way. The situation only gets worse for both parties involved if the ref isn't there to observe it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... it's just hard for me to believe he's played pool for many years and still doesn't know what constitutes a double-hit / push illegal hit on a ball you are very close to. ,,,

So, I'm keeping score at the straight pool event at Derby City and a world-champion-level player is on the table and breaks the balls open at 70. He gets a good spread but unfortunately leaves the cue ball nearly frozen to an object ball in the middle of the table. Sort of fortunately, the two balls are pointed nearly straight at a corner pocket. He shoots through, the cue ball follows through and pulls to a stop about a foot forward from the draw. I say, "Foul." He looks angry and confused. A spectator, who was one of the top young players in the 1970s and had played a jillion hours of 14.1, says, "That's total bullsh!t! That's no foul." and storms out, disgusted.

I think you should expect pool players to be as stupid as stumps. That way you may, on occasion, be pleasantly surprised.

In defense of the two players described above, downstairs at Derby City the shot would be legal as long as the player has jacked up some. In the main events you can hit the cue ball as many times as you please on close shots as long as you're jacked up. It's been that way since the event started. It's not clear how far you have to jack up. I've heard 45 degrees, but that's a lot higher than most players go on shots like that.

 

[hang-the-9]

So, I'm keeping score at the straight pool event at Derby City and a world-champion-level player is on the table and breaks the balls open at 70. He gets a good spread but unfortunately leaves the cue ball nearly frozen to an object ball in the middle of the table. Sort of fortunately, the two balls are pointed nearly straight at a corner pocket. He shoots through, the cue ball follows through and pulls to a stop about a foot forward from the draw. I say, "Foul." He looks angry and confused. A spectator, who was one of the top young players in the 1970s and had played a jillion hours of 14.1, says, "That's total bullsh!t! That's no foul." and storms out, disgusted.

I think you should expect pool players to be as stupid as stumps. That way you may, on occasion, be pleasantly surprised.

In defense of the two players described above, downstairs at Derby City the shot would be legal as long as the player has jacked up some. In the main events you can hit the cue ball as many times as you please on close shots as long as you're jacked up. It's been that way since the event started. It's not clear how far you have to jack up. I've heard 45 degrees, but that's a lot higher than most players go on shots like that.

I never got that rule that as long as you are jacked up it's OK. TAP does the same thing I think. As long as you look like you are trying to avoid the foul it does not matter to them if you actually foul or not. Crazy talk. Sorry I shot him, but I was really trying not to. Oh, OK then, get out of here you, thanks for trying at least.

 

[jimmyco]

Have heard the 45° rule, also.

I assumed it was because at that angle, the follow through is so short, it would not be a double hit.

 

[Koop]

But if you did not know about the 3 foul rule you would not know about it to know you should know about it. That was my point. Newer players and even not so new players have a lack of knowledge about many rules. We get players in 9 ball tournaments that never played 9 ball, no idea about how to lag, how to rack even, never mind any other rule past that if a ball goes in a pocket that is a good thing. If we just played with them and called fouls left and right that would be bad for everyone.

We are not talking about regional tours where you know what you are getting into, but some local weekly handicapped event.

This is why players show up for a week then never show up again, no one takes a minute to help new players, they just want to win. Playing in the Joss tour, sure, you don't need to explain rules to players that pay $70 to enter an event. If someone pays $10 to bang balls around, it's silly to treat new players the same way.

I pretty much run one of the local tournaments every week, and every new player gets help with rules and shots there. I don't want them feeling like they walked into some closed club where we just sit around taking their money.

Believe me, there were MANY players who showed up once to the tournaments I used to play and never came back. That was their choice. I looked at my donation as a lesson from much better players and occasionally I would cash if the draw went my way.
I still don't get this mentality when it comes to tournaments. League...yeah sure...I'll even help an opponent if I like them. But tournaments...I feel you should know the rules and it's not up to your opponent to guide you through the match.
And the tournament I am talking was no regional tour. It was a weekly event at Renaissance in Quincy back in the day.

 

[erhino41]

The shooting player should have been made aware that you had been asked to watch the hit. Other than that all else seems fine by me. It didn't have to be explained to him before the shot,but he should have been made aware. Once both players know, the judgment of the nuetral party is final. Then you may expound as much or as little as you see fit. As I see it the call goes to the shooter unless it is clear to all the hit will be watched.

 

[Runner]

When the opponent waved me over, he was sitting and I was standing in a position somewhat behind the shooter, so he didn't see him waving to signal me in to judge the shot, and he didn't see me approach the table just behind him. He was already getting ready to shoot, so instead of interrupting him (which I now realize I should have), I got myself in close to the table but still somewhat behind his left shoulder to where in his line of vision he didn't realize I was directly behind him judging the shot. I had clear view of everything I needed to see in order to make the call. And as I said it wasn't even a hard call - it was an obvious blatant double kiss / push to any knowledgeable player.

OK, got it... IMO Player C really should have been notified pre-shot that the hit was being watched, then if he questioned why, you can inform him of a potentiol double kiss. BUT he should know common foul rules.
Maybe the other player could have spoken up before Player C got down on the shot?..

Some players really don't know about double kiss or frozen ball fouls.

 

[Michael Andros]

Agreed, the "C ranked" player that committed the double hit is in his late 60s and has most likely played pool most of his life. He's the only player here in 23 years who comes in with his pool case and accessory bag pulled on wheels like he's headed through the airport terminal. He's certainly one of the strongest C players in our ranking system, as he's capable of running most of a rack. It's hardly like he's a newbie and it's just hard for me to believe he's played pool for many years and still doesn't know what constitutes a double-hit / push illegal hit on a ball you are very close to.

If he has enough interest in continuing to play in our tournaments, he'll be back and I'll reach out to him to offer to spend time demonstrating to him so he'll clearly know what constitutes a foul, for future reference. Once he gets over his anger in regards to that incident, I'm guessing he's played in enough tournaments in here to know that I'm an honest and fair TD who is respected by all our regular tournament players, particularly in regards to fairly ranking all our players and in judging shots / making rulings as they come up, as fairly as I possibly can.

That'a all you can really do, Chris. I find it a bit hard to believe as well he wasn't aware of what constitutes a push. Kind of like being arrested for robbing a drugstore then claiming you had no idea having a gun in your hand and saying "I need money" constituted robbery. "What? Who, me? When??? I wasn't there! Never BEEN there!"

I have a feeling he'll be back...