Anyone know if Mosconi ever saw Efren play, and if so, .....

[jay helfert]

Back in the mid 80's and early 90's, the owner of the pool room I managed would have Willie down twice a year for exhibitions.

Willie would usually fly in the day before the exhibition and the owner, I and Willie would go out for a nice dinner.

While we were eating one time, I asked Willie who he considered the greatest pool player of all time.

Without hesitation he said " You mean besides me?" with a little chuckle.

Then, he said "Seriously, the greatest player on the planet doesn't even play pocket billiards!"

"His name is Raymond Cuelemans and he's like 16 time world 3 cushion champion! That guy can do things with a cue ball I can only dream about!

Pretty nice endorsement from the man I considered to be the greatest that ever lived!


Stones

I have to agree with Willie here. The first time I ever saw Ceulemans play I was amazed at his control of all three balls. The only pool player I ever saw who stood at the table as solidly as him was Harold Worst, and in this case Harold would be second. Third on my list would be Kim Davenport, believe it or not. He was a rock when he got down on those balls.

 

[jay helfert]

What Willie would have thought before he got to that age where he couldn't play?

Well, it would have depended on how many balls Efren was able to run.

Simple as ^^^^^^^^^.

Everyone knows how Willie felt about 9 ball or ANY short rack type game. He thought it was a joke and was a game for less superior players.

You're correct there. Willie considered 9-Ball to be a "hustlers" game and beneath him to play. On a couple of occasions when he was goaded into a game, it did not end well for the hustler who thought they had him in a trap. If 9-Ball had been a tournament game back then and there had been money to be won, Willie would have dominated just like Lassiter and Earl did in their primes. Willie was head and shoulders above the pack when it came to controlling the cue ball. If he could see the one ball, he was OUT!

 

[fan-tum]

As Efren is the greatest cueist most of us have ever seen, it's safe to assume that had Efren dedicated his life to 14.1 as Willie did, he'd have been, at bare minimum, in the conversation with guys like Greenleaf, Mosconi, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak for greatest 14.1 player ever.

I've seen Efren play 14.1 a few times live, though, and while his efforts were very impressive given his limited experience in the game, his speed was probably such that he'd need 50 on the wire going to 150 against Willie in his prime. Actually, I think my money would still be on Mosconi with that 50 ball spot!

Totally agree. This might sound stupid, but maybe Efren thought 14.1 was so easy that he didn't feel the need to dedicate the necessary practice or watch the best players to see how they worked the rack. I'm impressed how Schmidt massages the rack to get a few balls in play and not move balls that don't need to be moved.

 

[bbb]

jay
can you tell us any interesting things you remember from that interview?

 

[lfigueroa]

No, I’m saying he would have criticized him as a player, and that even less of him because he was different.

And yes, there were certainly racist aspects of his personality and upbringing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Citation please.

Lou Figueroa
anything at all

 

[jay helfert]

Citation please.

Lou Figueroa
anything at all

I'm with you there. I was around Mosconi a lot and he was an equal opportunity hater.

He could and would show his dislike for anyone who moved, talked or breathed while he was shooting.

Willie demanded complete and total respect from the entire audience when he was playing and heaven forbid his opponent ran a rack or two, he would remind him who they came to see play.

Truthfully I never heard him make any kind of racist remark. He admired good players and would be the first to tell you how great a player James Evans was. He got along well with Cisero, even after he beat him in the Burbank tournament. He directed his anger at the promoter, not Cisero. Of course, he knew Cisero was no one to piss off either. That always helps define a person's attitude I've found. Bullies pick their spots. :smile:

One caveat. He didn't like Fats and vice versa. They both badmouthed each other.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Pshaw.... Lookit you, spoiling all the ten foot tall badmouthing asshattery from a player who probably doesn't play strong enough to carry Mosconi's jockstrap.

I'm with you there. I was around Mosconi a lot and he was an equal opportunity hater.

He could and would show his dislike for anyone who moved, talked or breathed while he was shooting.

Willie demanded complete and total respect from the entire audience when he was playing and heaven forbid his opponent ran a rack or two, he would remind him who they came to see play.

Truthfully I never heard him make any kind of racist remark. He admired good players and would be the first to tell you how great a player James Evans was. He got along well with Cisero, even after he beat him in the Burbank tournament. He directed his anger at the promoter, not Cisero. Of course, he knew Cisero was no one to piss off either. That always helps define a person's attitude I've found. Bullies pick their spots. :smile:

 

[Stones]

Years ago, I remember reading an article about Efren and Raymond Cuelemans playing a match in the U. S. 3 Cushion Championships. It was a race to 50 points.

Efren was leading the match with the score of 48-37. Cuelemans put a 13 point run on Efren to win the match.

Raymond said after the match Efren had more raw natural talent for the game and if he concentrated solely on 3 cushion, he could easily be a world champion.

In his younger days, Efren was the best all around player in the world as he mastered all disciplines.


Stones

 

[johnnysd]

Willie did see Efren play - at Hard Times in around 1990-91 we put on the Willie Mosconi Open and Willie made an appearance there and even did a couple of short exhibitions. I had to remind him if he was shooting a shot for the second time because he had some memory lapses by then.

Efren played in that event (9-Ball) and Willie watched part of one match. I sat next to him and gave him some background on Efren. Willie sat in silence for a few minutes and then said, "He has a nice game." He made no comment on his stroke or stance or anything else.

We also did a one hour long interview that was recorded on video where Willie discussed his life in Pool. Unfortunately and unbelievably, the guy who recorded it accidentally erased it as well. He asked me to do it again and I refused. It was enough to put Willie through all that once and I wasn't about to ask him to sit through it again. That experience was a tremendous disappointment to me as we had some classic stuff on that tape.

I still have the Program for that tournament, signed by Willie. It was a fun event.

 

[jay helfert]

I still have the Program for that tournament, signed by Willie. It was a fun event.

I lost mine. :frown:
And I was the TD!

I don't even remember who won that one. We had so many great tournaments back then with world class fields. Winners included Buddy, Dennis Hatch, Varner, Swanee and Roger Griffis even snuck in and took one off. Sigel would never play at Hard Times, even though he visited a time or two. Mizerak played in one or two events and Efren and Parica played in several of them.

In those days (1988-1992) Efren was not winning any 9-Ball tournaments. Earl, Buddy, Nick and Sigel were the dominant players. Efren's break wasn't strong enough and the top players figured out how to defend against him, (Don't get into safety battles and kicking contests!). Efren had a dry spell of several years before he won another major 9-Ball tourney. He did get several high finishes though at Hard Times, like top four.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Years ago, I remember reading an article about Efren and Raymond Ceulemans playing a match in the U. S. 3 Cushion Championships. It was a race to 50 points. ...

That might have been at Chris's in Chicago. I remember Efren happened to be around when a tournament was happening there and played pretty well.

It was certainly not the US Championships since neither is qualified to play in that.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Years ago, I remember reading an article about Efren and Raymond Cuelemans playing a match in the U. S. 3 Cushion Championships. It was a race to 50 points.

Efren was leading the match with the score of 48-37. Cuelemans put a 13 point run on Efren to win the match.

Raymond said after the match Efren had more raw natural talent for the game and if he concentrated solely on 3 cushion, he could easily be a world champion.

In his younger days, Efren was the best all around player in the world as he mastered all disciplines.


Stones

What a lot of people don't know about Efren.. He played so well in the Phillipines that he killed all of his pocket billiard action, and then took up straight rail and 3-cushion billiards as a means to continue to gamble and make money.

While certainly he was naturally gifted far beyond all but a minute percentage of players, I would not say that Efren had no 3-cushion experience when he played Cuelemans... In fact, what with starting with straight rail billiards and later graduating to 3-cushion in the Phillipines, Efren likely followed the same general development path as many great billiards champions, who tend to master the direct carom games before starting to learn 3-cushion.

A lot of Efren's finesse safeties and controlled short kicks come directly out his experience with billiard games.

 

[jay helfert]

What a lot of people don't know about Efren.. He played so well in the Phillipines that he killed all of his pocket billiard action, and then took up straight rail and 3-cushion billiards as a means to continue to gamble and make money.

While certainly he was naturally gifted far beyond all but a minute percentage of players, I would not say that Efren had no 3-cushion experience when he played Cuelemans... In fact, what with starting with straight rail billiards and later graduating to 3-cushion in the Phillipines, Efren likely followed the same general development path as many great billiards champions, who tend to master the direct carom games before starting to learn 3-cushion.

A lot of Efren's finesse safeties and controlled short kicks come directly out his experience with billiard games.

Where he found a Carom table I don't know. I don't remember ever seeing one anywhere in the Philippines. If they're there they keep them well hidden.
I'm thinking that he started playing during his days in Chicago. Maybe someone can confirm that. Remember Efren picked up One Pocket very quickly and became a master of a very hard game in a matter of months. Why couldn't he have done likewise with Three Cushions?

The only other player I know of who mastered new billiard games that fast was Harold Worst. He was another savant like Efren.

 

[JoeyInCali]

What a lot of people don't know about Efren.. He played so well in the Phillipines that he killed all of his pocket billiard action, and then took up straight rail and 3-cushion billiards as a means to continue to gamble and make money.

While certainly he was naturally gifted far beyond all but a minute percentage of players, I would not say that Efren had no 3-cushion experience when he played Cuelemans... In fact, what with starting with straight rail billiards and later graduating to 3-cushion in the Phillipines, Efren likely followed the same general development path as many great billiards champions, who tend to master the direct carom games before starting to learn 3-cushion.

A lot of Efren's finesse safeties and controlled short kicks come directly out his experience with billiard games.

You have it backwards. Efren was so good in karambola, nobody would play him. He told me he was at his best in 3 cushion in 1979.
He pretty much quit after that. He was the karambola king of the Philippines too many times. They kicked him out of the tournament. He'd spot the tournament champion and still beat them on the side after the tournament.
He had plenty of action in pool but had to give up ridiculous spot.
Among them was he had to bank his last ball in rotation.


Last time I saw Efren play 3-cushion was upstairs at Hollywood Billiards back in '96 when he played with Meucci. He played with a Meucci in 3-cushion as well.
Shocked the hell out of me.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Where he found a Carom table I don't know. I don't remember ever seeing one anywhere in the Philippines. If they're there they keep them well hidden.
I'm thinking that he started playing during his days in Chicago. Maybe someone can confirm that. Remember Efren picked up One Pocket very quickly and became a master of a very hard game in a matter of months. Why couldn't he have done likewise with Three Cushions?

The only other player I know of who mastered new billiard games that fast was Harold Worst. He was another savant like Efren.

Lori de Leon told me they had them in Pampanga. They used big empty cans of Baguio oil filled with coconut charcoal to heat the table.

San Miguel Beer used to have Karambola King of the Philippines annual tournament.
It was televised even.

 

[jay helfert]

Lori de Leon told me they had them in Pampanga. They used big empty cans of Baguio oil filled with coconut charcoal to heat the table.

San Miguel Beer used to have Karambola King of the Philippines annual tournament.
It was televised even.

Thanks for the info. I must have been in over a hundred poolrooms in the PI and have yet to see a billiard table. They may have had one in the poolroom at Robinson's Mall Malate, but it's long gone now, replaced by another pool table.

 

[deanoc]

Jay has led a very interesting pool life
I always like his stories,he played every where,knew everyone and
keeps me happy reading his stories

 

[pt109]

That might have been at Chris's in Chicago. I remember Efren happened to be around when a tournament was happening there and played pretty well.

It was certainly not the US Championships since neither is qualified to play in that.

I think that was the time period where Efren won the consolation 3-C tourney...
...they said he played 3-C like a pool player
Next week, in the same area, he won the 9-ball tournament...
...they said he played pool like a carom player

Also around that time, Billy I said he’d be a good one-hole player......
...when he learns the game
Couple years later, everybody was trying to learn how HE played it

Efren got people looking at billiard games in a different way

 

[Bic D]

Great thread, great stories...Keep em' coming

 

[victhestick]

Efren was concentrating on three-cushion billiards when I met him in 1977. He had a high run of 14 in practice on a slow damp table. He had mastered 15 ball rotation. I never saw him playing balkline.

i played one game of 14.1 with him. He ran 75 off my break, played safe, and we went to lunch.