started moving the cue ball with only stun

[KMRUNOUT]

Sure - but I hear advice about not needing spin etc. Just played a match last night on a triple shimmed diamond - dude only missed when he tried to stroke in in hard to stun/cheat a bit.



A small angle into a corner needing to move down table takes a large swing if you're not going to using spin once it gets to a rail. Just my opinion. I'll be the first to admit I use too much spin- I just see people hitting 2-3x harder when I don't think its necessary and the ball rattles.

You're very right. The whole "verticals axis player" vs "spin player" is a dichotomy that exists rarely among good players. When I drive I don't only take left turns. I take the turn required by the situation. In the same way, players that avoid English because they will miss are not likely to become very strong players. Probably top out at the B level. It's far easier to pocket a ball, *especially* on tight pockets, when you can hit it smooth and medium speed. Avoiding English, having to pound the ball in to get where you need to go is a great recipe for missing a lot. I practice on a pro cut Diamond with those green pocket reduces all the time. Openings are about 3.00". I have zero chance of running out if I'm sticking to center ball and smashing everything in. A little English goes a long way. When I'm close to the object ball, sometimes a lot of English allows me to get way around the table with minimal effort, and hence maximum accuracy. I strongly believe the best way to stall out your pool development is to spend your early years sticking to the verticals axis. Opinions may vary.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[Bobkitty]

You're very right. The whole "verticals axis player" vs "spin player" is a dichotomy that exists rarely among good players. When I drive I don't only take left turns. I take the turn required by the situation. In the same way, players that avoid English because they will miss are not likely to become very strong players. Probably top out at the B level. It's far easier to pocket a ball, *especially* on tight pockets, when you can hit it smooth and medium speed. Avoiding English, having to pound the ball in to get where you need to go is a great recipe for missing a lot. I practice on a pro cut Diamond with those green pocket reduces all the time. Openings are about 3.00". I have zero chance of running out if I'm sticking to center ball and smashing everything in. A little English goes a long way. When I'm close to the object ball, sometimes a lot of English allows me to get way around the table with minimal effort, and hence maximum accuracy. I strongly believe the best way to stall out your pool development is to spend your early years sticking to the verticals axis. Opinions may vary.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

If you can sink the balls, no one cares how you play, spinner or vertical.

 

[JohnnyP]

Why are you using side spin if you are not taking the cue ball to a cushion?

Bob:

I used to do a lot of drills where I set the balls up in a line and shot them into the same pocket, drawing back for position on the next ball. I found using inside draw I could "straighten out the angle" so the cue ball didn't slide too far off to the side, out of position.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob:

I used to do a lot of drills where I set the balls up in a line and shot them into the same pocket, drawing back for position on the next ball. I found using inside draw I could "straighten out the angle" so the cue ball didn't slide too far off to the side, out of position.

Yes, that can be useful to make a small difference in the cue ball's position, but I think the OP was doing something else.

The classic drill where I find side with no cushion useful is Mosconi's classic "ring around the side pocket" drill. It is best played as a progressive practice. The interesting thing related to the use of side is that if you are off a little on the angle to get on the next ball, one side is useful, but if you are even farther off, the other side is useful.

Here is that drill:

 

[9andout]

The "stun" shot goes off the OB at a 90 degree angle. Learning how to do this at all distances and speeds with the cue tip control is very valuable. Once you're doing that well, learn to hit the OB with a little bit of roll after (on a straight shot for practice). We call this stop + 6" (or so). The is the way it works on a straight in shot for practice, but the real advantage is the angle the CB takes off the OB off an angle. If the tangent runs in to a ball or a scratch and you need a little follow, practice this shot. Here is a video I made a couple of years ago. This is center CB control around the table. https://youtu.be/fjEGe0_rP2k

Good video. The comments had what I was going to say.
Your shot is also referred to as "stun run through".

 

[KRJ]

If you can sink the balls, no one cares how you play, spinner or vertical.

Well, except maybe the pro's. I can't think of one pro who only plays vertical only.
I can't think of one good amateur. Heck, I can't think of one decent league player. The only ones I know only playing vertical are avg league players at best. I'd say a good APA 4 or 5 may play vertical and do pretty well. Going to be hard to improve on a bar box, only using stun. Table's just to small to hit harder/firmer all the time.

I'd say those APA 4/5's that are doing it and doing it well, it's time to up their game. Well, unless they want to stay a 5 for life

 

[BC21]

I'm missing something in reference to what a lot of documentation refers to as the "tangent". _IF_ the cue ball on the table is 0,0 (and why wouldn't it be?), shouldn't the tangent line be the line drawn from point A. (object ball) to point B. (cue ball)? In these books they just keep mentioning "tangent" with assumption to a rail, but they don't mark which rail is X or Y. So while one shot in reference could the side rail could be considered the tangent, the same shot in reference to the head rail would be the sin. To me it might be longer winded, but referencing it as the angle of reflection might be better than tangent... especially if you're just learning? .......

The "tangent" line has no reference to the rails. It is simply the line that is 90° from the direction the ob is being sent. With a ball in the center of the table, put the cb on the kitchen line and 1 diamond left or right of the ob. Shoot so that the ob goes toward the center diamond on the end rail. The tangent line here leads straight to the side pocket. A sliding/stun cb will be sent along this tangent line after striking the ob. A rolling cb (or a cb hit above center) will go beyond the this tangent line. A cb with draw/backspin will pull above the tangent line.

 

[Bobkitty]

Well, except maybe the pro's. I can't think of one pro who only plays vertical only.
I can't think of one good amateur. Heck, I can't think of one decent league player. The only ones I know only playing vertical are avg league players at best. I'd say a good APA 4 or 5 may play vertical and do pretty well. Going to be hard to improve on a bar box, only using stun. Table's just to small to hit harder/firmer all the time.

I'd say those APA 4/5's that are doing it and doing it well, it's time to up their game. Well, unless they want to stay a 5 for life

I wish you could see my teacher play. With vertical ball control it's only speed around the table. A little English here and there for a boost on the rails. But he can spin it around also but his preference is vertical CB control. Lots of places on the table where a spinning CB will just not find. I've seen it and believe it.

 

[KRJ]

I wish you could see my teacher play. With vertical ball control it's only speed around the table. A little English here and there for a boost on the rails. But he can spin it around also but his preference is vertical CB control. Lots of places on the table where a spinning CB will just not find. I've seen it and believe it.

We can all play that way, we just choose not to. I use less spin than most. Only when needed. If vertical will work, then I use it. But, it just it not possible for all shots. And hence, why pro's or very good amateurs cannot live on vertical alone. Actually, you made my point for me when you said your teacher uses "English here and there".

 

[Maniac]

I'd say those APA 4/5's that are doing it and doing it well, it's time to up their game. Well, unless they want to stay a 5 for life

And somehow, they have a way of doing just that...upping their game but staying at the same skill level.

Maniac

 

[KRJ]

And somehow, they have a way of doing just that...upping their game but staying at the same skill level.

Maniac

well, I've seen some of these 4s and 5's and most of them are not just using vertical But, they like being 5s because they can win more money in double tourneys, and easy to catch on teams if you are a great 4, folks will fight over you lol

 

[jrctherake]

Why are you using side spin if you are not taking the cue ball to a cushion?

(For Dean: stun is when the cue ball arrives at the object ball without follow or draw. If the object ball is struck full on, it is a stop shot. Stun is a stop shot with an angle, in a sense.)

I thought same thing. All 5hat would do is make you "have to adjust" for something that isn't needed.

 

[jrctherake]

i am not sure what stun is
is there a video explanation on az

Basically a "stop shot" that's not straight in. The more angle, the more the CB will move that direction.

 

[jrctherake]

Man cannot live on bread (top english) and water (bottom English) alone. He "has to" have a little something else "at times"...

 

[Bobkitty]

Good video. The comments had what I was going to say.
Your shot is also referred to as "stun run through".

Yes, but the line of the CB off of a OB for an angle shot is what is important with this shot. I practice the straight in's with speed and cue tip control. If the OB is placed on the spot, and at an angle a stop shot will scratch in the other corner pocket. Perfect tangent. But, with the shot I'm practicing the OB will hit the end rail just past the corner pocket. Another way to drill this shot is to place the OB one ball length to the middle from the spot and then see if you can scratch. Perfecting this from all angles with different speeds and distances is the ticket. Amazing for shape and cluster break outs.

 

[jrctherake]

well, I've seen some of these 4s and 5's and most of them are not just using vertical But, they like being 5s because they can win more money in double tourneys, and easy to catch on teams if you are a great 4, folks will fight over you lol

Well said and very true but:

Drop all the handicapp bullchit and a strong 5 is nothing more than a rail bird. That may step on some toes of people that wear their feelings on their sleeve but, it's the truth.

And I know before anyone says it:

Take handicapping away and leagues go away.....take leagues away and poof....pool is in huge trouble.

Sad but true as we all know.

^^^^^^^^^ I HATE tournaments in general. All it does is dumb down pool.....JMO.

 

[evergruven]

I like playing even too. That said, the couple bca leagues I've done weren't handicapped, I don't think..never played anyone better than mid-high 500s tho.

As for stun, etc., I definitely like playing with different spins, but I also feel like I often have to..staying vertical is tough.

 

[Bobkitty]

Yes, but the line of the CB off of a OB for an angle shot is what is important with this shot. I practice the straight in's with speed and cue tip control. If the OB is placed on the spot, and at an angle a stop shot will scratch in the other corner pocket. Perfect tangent. But, with the shot I'm practicing the OB will hit the end rail just past the corner pocket. Another way to drill this shot is to place the OB one ball length to the middle from the spot and then see if you can scratch. Perfecting this from all angles with different speeds and distances is the ticket. Amazing for shape and cluster break outs.[/QUOTE

I call the three shots I performed in the video "center ball". It's a stun and run through about 6" on a straight in shot. On angled shots, it follows a little higher than tangent. I work on this drill all of the time. Not sure if anyone else does.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I work on this drill all of the time. Not sure if anyone else does.

Ted Brown's "Wagon Wheel" drill is pretty well known and the advanced version uses stun run through.

 

[lfigueroa]

saw a video of a pro playing, and he made a shot that had me intrigued. so I started to try to make the same shot, and after a while, I was able to do the same exact shot. thats how I discovered that using just stun on the cue ball really moves the cue ball around.

I can now on a slightly angled shot, move the cue ball left or right, down either side of the long rail, using just low center with a stun stroke. adding just a touch of left or right and low center gets me going in the same direction.
totally different stroke than my draw stroke, and much easier.

sorry im so excited, but when the light blub goes off in my old brain, I get excited.:smile::smile:

It's called a Touch of Stun or TOS (patent pending DVDs forthcoming).

Lou Figueroa