just a lil rant

HawaiianEye said:
Tons of them come over to ask me to show them things and teach them things. Sometimes, if they come early before their league starts, I will bring them to my table and help them...for FREE. I don't see anybody in the APA, who is taking their money, teaching them anything for FREE.

Why not?
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I cannot speak of all APA areas, but the two I play/have played in, you wouldn't have enough people interested enough in getting "free" help to make it worth your while to set a program up for them.

In the 13 years I've played in the APA I've had a grand total of TWO people ask me to stay after league play and show them some things.

Then, I cannot count how many times I've called a timeout on a lower skill-leveled player to show them where they are about to f*ck up and try to show them a pattern that could give them a better chance of winning the game....and they get mad at me for calling the timeout. They'd rather lose the game/match trying to succeed on their own than to win the game/match with someone trying to give them help and teach them something at the same time. It blows my mind how often I have run into this mentality.

I do agree with some of the posters and their complaints about the APA. IMHO, an APA area is only as good as the League Operator running it....and there are obviously some dogs (I know one personally). It is what it is and I have learned to accept it for what it is and move on with my life. Besides, it's challenging trying to outrun the spot.

Maniac
 
HawaiianEye said:
How about a two-way shot?

If a person shoots and misses, is it offensive or defensive?

It is offense if he makes it.

Is it defense if he misses it and hooks you?

In pool, I think you should have to call every shot, but I'm in the minority. I don't think you should have to call kisses, off the rail, etc...but you should call the pocket. I will play it as "technical" as you want, but it isn't necessary.

I keep asking people to play "next ball", but nobody wants to play that.

You have to call the ball and pocket for your current shot and the ball and pocket for your next shot before you shoot. If you make the first shot and screw up your position for the second shot, you still have to go for the hole you originally called or play a safe. You aren't allowed to shoot it into another hole or pocket another ball.

That teaches you cue ball control or you get your ass kicked in a hurry.
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I had Chris Bartram call every ball and pocket in 10 ball ghost on a 9' Diamond
before shooting his first shot for $5 a game. I lost $40, it was a great way to get him ready for a big match we were playing later that day.
 
Maniac said:
...


...
Then, I cannot count how many times I've called a timeout on a lower skill-leveled player to show them where they are about to f*ck up and try to show them a pattern that could give them a better chance of winning the game....and they get mad at me for calling the timeout. They'd rather lose the game/match trying to succeed on their own than to win the game/match with someone trying to give them help and teach them something at the same time. It blows my mind how often I have run into this mentality.

...

Maniac
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Nobody likes a kibitzer (see what I did there?).
 
lorider said:
Yea I made it to Vegas once but that is not what my post is about. My rant is over people not using what apa has put it in place properly to ensure accurate skill levels.

Its not just about me but my entire team sufferes the consequences if I am spotting some one who i should be playing even.

As for me personally .....i am not afraid to play any one even . I joined masters as a 4 and played the best in town even up in a race to 7. Sure I tool my lumps when I first started but over time I managed to win a rack here and there and then worked my way up to winning matches.on any given night.

To me ....winning a handicapped match by 3-4 in a 3-5 race vs a 7 is no big deal. Winning an even race to 7 vs the best in town is a big deal to me...being a 5/6.


Playing in a team tournament where every one on the team is relying on you to win a match spotting a player you should be playing even is a big deal to me. But I guess anyone who has never played on a team could understand the difference..
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Any handicapped match is a joke. It invites sandbagging.

No one ever sandbagged playing for their last 20 bucks.

JC
 
JC said:
Any handicapped match is a joke. It invites sandbagging.

No one ever sandbagged playing for their last 20 bucks.

JC
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Well there is such a thing as laying low to get a bigger score. This forum is full if threads covering that subject.

Hilarious that you state handicapping is a joke .. nobody on earth including pros will match up even if they really need a spot....unless they are mad at their money.
 
lorider said:
Well there is such a thing as laying low to get a bigger score. This forum is full if threads covering that subject.

Hilarious that you state handicapping is a joke .. nobody on earth including pros will match up even if they really need a spot....unless they are mad at their money.
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I will. At least in like 8,9,10 ball. In one pocket I’d take a spot like the breaks or a ball or whatevs but I feel like the games on the wire lessens the incentive to improve. The game exists under the same laws of physics for everyone. You just have to practice grasshopper. A fun king lot of practice.
 
lorider said:
Well there is such a thing as laying low to get a bigger score. This forum is full if threads covering that subject.

Hilarious that you state handicapping is a joke .. nobody on earth including pros will match up even if they really need a spot....unless they are mad at their money.
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Well I guess that keeps degenerates with gambling addictions in check then?

Well maybe not, they are the definition of mad at their money.

There is always someone to match up with fairly. There are dozens of players right here in my area within ten fargo points of me. There are a lot of reasons for playing up even besides being mad at your money. Some people want to improve and playing a turd and spotting them doesn't get it done.

JC
 
HawaiianEye said:
The drinking isn't the problem.

I've drank my fair share and still beat everybody in the house.

The lack of pool shooting is.

Some of them come to "socialize" and pool is "secondary". The pool part is just something they do between the times they are away from their friends on the side and sitting on the side looking at their cell phones.

I don't need to be told about them. I see them EVERY Sunday and know what they do.

Tons of them come over to ask me to show them things and teach them things. Sometimes, if they come early before their league starts, I will bring them to my table and help them...for FREE. I don't see anybody in the APA, who is taking their money, teaching them anything for FREE.

Why not?
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Because you're not paying attention.

Plenty of us (those of us who take their money) will help anyone who asks, and will offer help on occasion even when not asked. The fact that you don't see us probably means we're busy doing what we do, providing a product and service that people are willing to pay for, and don't have all day to hang out in a pool hall like some people.

You speak with such disdain about people whose goals in life or reason for being there do not align perfectly with yours. So what if they are just there to socialize and pool is secondary? If not for the pool league, they likely wouldn't be there at all, and eventually neither would you. And I'll let you in on a little secret. Whether they seek instruction or not, they are getting it. The overall level of pool playing in my area is miles ahead of where it was when I started, and I'm pretty sure I had something to do with that. Can you say the same? I doubt it, so who are you to knock us or those who enjoy our product?
 
HawaiianEye said:
I keep asking people to play "next ball", but nobody wants to play that.

You have to call the ball and pocket for your current shot and the ball and pocket for your next shot before you shoot. If you make the first shot and screw up your position for the second shot, you still have to go for the hole you originally called or play a safe. You aren't allowed to shoot it into another hole or pocket another ball.

That teaches you cue ball control or you get your ass kicked in a hurry.
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I play that all the time as practice by myself. Never thought about 1 vs 1.

I've never played APA, or understand it. But I always see people on here ranting about sandbagging in it. It's made me realize, don't ever get into an APA league.

Is there sandbagging in other leagues? I imagine so, but in BCAPL, you really can only sandbag the first 3 weeks if you're new. I can see people who know they have the round won and the last couple players throwing their games, but there is still a point to be won for overall.

How handicap is affected by the number of defensive shots, I can't wrap my head around but they should never affect handicap imo.
 
HawaiianEye said:
The whole APA thing is a joke.

When you have people who are 3s keeping score and don't even know what a safe is, how do you expect them to know when a 3 on the table is playing a safe?

In order for someone to actually "determine" if a player is playing safe, the player should have to announce before they shoot.

The whole APA is mostly BANGERS. From what I've seen over the years, nobody even tries to teach anybody anything for the most part.

It is a social club where bangers get together to discuss how their LD shaft works so well and they can't run two balls. That, and standing around in the way between tables and drinking beer and bullshitting.

That's my rant.

If the APA were actually attempting to make people "pool players", they would have free weekly clinics where the supposed "pool players" in the league would instruct them.
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I'm sure guys like Junji Mochinaga, Brian Parks, Ernesto Bayau, Robert Hall, Steve Knoll, Raymond Linares and many other top players will be happy to know they are just bangers that you can give weight to. LOL
 
ShootingArts said:
Sent you a little note in rep.

Hu
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Thanks for the advice hu and seriously contemplating on checking it out.

I thought about celophnanes and maniacs posts while on the way to our 9 ball tournament and decided they both made some good points . I can only control what I do and decided to just enjoy playing pool .

Well I did not enjoy the outcome of my match vs a 7. Give my opponent credit....he played like a 7 should....but I made it very easy for him. Nothing went right for me and no excuse ....my head was not in the game. When I turned the scoresheet in my lo said to me ....for what ever reason you were off today and I have never seen you play that bad.....you are a better player than that. My match put us out of the tournament.

Well I had league last night after the tournament.. I played 8 ball against another 5 in a 4-4 race. I went up 2-0 and then inexplicably lost focus and lost 4in a row losing the match.

I am not keeping score....not keeping track of who is doing what. Just sitting there fuming over my lousy play this weekend.

Well after about an hour I threw myself in the last 9 ball match....they threw the same guy I lost 8 ball to. He is a 5 in 9 also and I am a 6...it was a 46-38 race. I thought ...aha...revenge time .

I rolled over him like a freight train winning 46-18. When I started putting my cues up a team mate who is also a 5/6 like me said I played awesome and it was like night and day difference in how I played just a few hours earlier at the tournament. I told him it was due to being ticked off about that embarrassing loss earlier. The guy who I had just beat had overheard our conversation and said . Well if its any consolation you just embarrassed the heck out of me. We all 3 started laughing


Like I said...i am capable of playing at a higher level than my handicap indicates but not being consistent at that level for whatever reason keeps my handicap lower .

One last thing ...i talked to a guy that plays pretty good and is always there gambling on the big tables. If I had to guess his level I would say he is close to a Fargo 620 ? Just a guess from others who I know are rated around that. Well I asked him what he would charge...if he was willing to work with me. He told me he would gladly work with me and charge me nothing. So we will be getting together from time to time she schedules allow.
 
lorider said:
Thanks for the advice hu and seriously contemplating on checking it out.
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Had to laugh about the next fella catching it for you being annoyed at yourself for earlier play. It is great when you can channel the aggression and make it work for you.

I think the coaching sounds great. A lot rubs off being around a better player besides what they are teaching deliberately. His volunteering to help after you offered pay speaks well for him and he may be a nice friend to spend time with too.

Good luck on all fronts!

Hu
 
A typical APA shooter's perspective...

I'm not at the level some of you are in Billiards, and I have only around 7 years in APA league play. I have to agree with the initial post on the topic of posting safeties. MANY people keeping score are not posting safeties, or even understand what one is. My belief is they're being shown to keep score and being given the score sheet. Even the people teaching them don't know. I was guilty of the same, until my Co Captain happened to see what I was doing a couple years ago. The videos by the APA address this and, most likely, no one is watching them. Not everyone is guilty of this, but many are. Actually, I believe the League operators need to address this. Secondly, I don't know how aware they are ? As far as Sand Bagging, There is definitely something going on. I had never been on any league before, and in 7 years have made it to a 6 in skill level. Many of the people I play against have over 15 years on this league, and are still 3-4-5 skill levels... Go figure... There are 3's who will shoot you to hill/hill . I play a weekend board and go up in skill level instantly... Quite frankly, I've quit any extra league tournaments. Bottom line is, "enforcement" by League Operators means they lose players and money... When do you turn your head, when do you speak up ???
 
Meh. Treat it for what it is, and enjoy it or skip it. In my handicap league there is no smoking or drinking allowed. very little "throwing off" or sandbagging so more skilled players play against each other. I have a little fun playing the other 7's (we're probably 6's in a tough league), socialize, watch 2 SL 2's take 45 innings to shoot off 3 racks (actually happened about a year ago). then I play in the Masters league for more serious competition.

The one thing that does aggravate me about APA is the SL limit. I understand why they do it, but it means that teams have to disband if one or two of the lesser players improve.
 
HawaiianEye said:
The drinking isn't the problem.

I've drank my fair share and still beat everybody in the house.

The lack of pool shooting is.

Some of them come to "socialize" and pool is "secondary". The pool part is just something they do between the times they are away from their friends on the side and sitting on the side looking at their cell phones.

I don't need to be told about them. I see them EVERY Sunday and know what they do.

Tons of them come over to ask me to show them things and teach them things. Sometimes, if they come early before their league starts, I will bring them to my table and help them...for FREE. I don't see anybody in the APA, who is taking their money, teaching them anything for FREE.

Why not?
Click to expand...
Why is it the league's responsibility to teach them anything? It is an amateur league, not a clinic or a school. If players want to get better they should do so on their own time, with their own money and effort. Just my 2c.
 
ral819 said:
I'm not at the level some of you are in Billiards, and I have only around 7 years in APA league play. I have to agree with the initial post on the topic of posting safeties. MANY people keeping score are not posting safeties, or even understand what one is. My belief is they're being shown to keep score and being given the score sheet. Even the people teaching them don't know. I was guilty of the same, until my Co Captain happened to see what I was doing a couple years ago. The videos by the APA address this and, most likely, no one is watching them. Not everyone is guilty of this, but many are. Actually, I believe the League operators need to address this. Secondly, I don't know how aware they are ? As far as Sand Bagging, There is definitely something going on. I had never been on any league before, and in 7 years have made it to a 6 in skill level. Many of the people I play against have over 15 years on this league, and are still 3-4-5 skill levels... Go figure... There are 3's who will shoot you to hill/hill . I play a weekend board and go up in skill level instantly... Quite frankly, I've quit any extra league tournaments. Bottom line is, "enforcement" by League Operators means they lose players and money... When do you turn your head, when do you speak up ???
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Always speak up. That's part of the system too. Bring attention to those who might not be playing fairly. Also part of the system is the LO, and a good one will know what to do with your feedback. As for the "losing players" bit, it's my belief that the vast majority of players are honest, and if I lose the few who are dishonest it will make my league better and more attractive to the kind of people I want. I've been around a while and have never looked the other way for fear of losing players.
 
lorider said:
Every time the word apa is mentioned on here people come out of the woodwork bashing the organization about it being full of sandbaggers. I always reply that sandbaggers are in ever league and if proper scorekeeping is utilized it would cut down on the number of players that are under handicapped.

I happen to like apa and am a big supporter of their efforts to curb sandbagging. I have stressed to every one on my team that keeps score to always mark defensive shots. I cannot control how other teams keep score but I thought I could control my people ....until this weekend.

Last night we played a new team that had several new players. I wound up playing 8 ball vs a woman who started out as a 3. It quickly became obvious this woman is definitely better than a 3. She had a half dozen well played safes and several 2 way shots that were well beyond and legit apa 3. I did however manage to win 4-0 in a 4-2 race due to some well played safes myself.after my match was over I grabbed the scoresheet to look it over and determine who to throw next. I was surprised to see not a single safe marked for her or myself. lets just say I let him know I was not a happy camper and I marked all the safes myself. Later on I lectured the whole team about what transpired on the scoresheet and told them that I always hear complaining from them about this persons or that persons handicap and that they and every one else that fails to mark safes is the root cause of someone being under handicapped.

Today at our 8 ball best of the rest tournament the same damn thing happened again. I was in a knock down drag out fight to win 4-1 in a 4-3 race. This 4 played 10 safes on me and only 2 were marked. Lemme just say I was livid and went off telling the scorekeeper that opponent is playing like a 5...same as me and yet I am spotting him a rack in a match where the outcome could mean the difference in our team going to ltc's ...or not.

I gotta get my players out if being so damn lazy or inattentive or whatever their problem is. I know a lot if tens dont bother marking safes but i am trying to make sure my team is not one of them.

Rant over...back to regularly scheduled what the best chalk etc.
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You can rant all you want, but the problem is staring you in the face. The APA handicap relies heavily on highly subjective and overly complicated scoring system.

I implore the APA to modify their format and incorporate the highly objective and very accurate Fargo ratings. I know you THINK that your proprietary handicap is the backbone of your success, but that's not it. Simplify the score sheet, solidify the handicap, reduce the sandbagging. And all the while you will help make pocket billiards handicaps become as standardized as golf handicaps are. That will strengthen our sport.
 
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