Consensus "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) List

highkarate said:
5 for Busty. If Efren didn't exist, everybody would be talking about bustamante. He's easily a Top 5 GOAT IMO.
Click to expand...
You just moved Busty from 10 to 8 above Francisco and Dennis.

Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 169
2 - Earl Strickland - 89
3 - Shane Van Boening - 85
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 80
5 - Nick Varner - 80
6 - Mike Sigel - 64
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 47
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 43
11 - Buddy Hall - 42

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 15): atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
 
PoolBum said:
For my second round vote I would like to give 25 points to Varner, 30 points to Sigel, and -50 points to Earl.
Click to expand...
Nice try, but negative points are not allowed.

Please respond with a legal vote.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Poolmanis said:
2nd round SVB 5
Click to expand...
You just bumped Shane from 3 to 2 above Earl. This is fun.

Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 169
2 - Shane Van Boening - 90
3 - Earl Strickland - 89
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 80
5 - Nick Varner - 80
6 - Mike Sigel - 64
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 47
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 43
11 - Buddy Hall - 42

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 16): atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Poolmanis, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
 
RailBanger said:
I've heard both Efren and Busty avoided gambling with Parica.

My votes:

Earl 2
Efren 1
Buddy Hall 1
Mike Sigel 1
Click to expand...
You just moved Earl from 3 to 2 above SVB. I suspect this isn't the last move for these two.

Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 170
2 - Earl Strickland - 91
3 - Shane Van Boening - 90
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 80
5 - Nick Varner - 80
6 - Mike Sigel - 65
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 47
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 43
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 17): atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Poolmanis, RailBanger, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
 
ricardo said:
For my second vote
Varner - 2
Bustamante - 2
Reyes - 1
Click to expand...
You just move Nick from 5 to 4 above Alex.

Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 171
2 - Earl Strickland - 91
3 - Shane Van Boening - 90
4 - Nick Varner - 82
5 - Alex Pagulayan - 80
6 - Mike Sigel - 65
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 43
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 18): atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
 
dr_dave said:
Note that I have not included players from the too-distant past. For example, arguments can be made that Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Hoppe, Cranfield, Crane, DeOro, Lindrum, Caras (and others) deserve to be on the list, but I purposely excluded them since it is too difficult (or impossible) for most people to compare them to players in the modern era (since 1970). I at least give them honorable mention here. For those who object to this, wherever you see "GOAT" in this thread, read it as GIME (Greatest in the Modern Era) instead.
Click to expand...

Yea, well, then call it "Greatest in Modern Era," not "Greatest of All Time!"

It would be interesting, I think, to establish 'eras' in billiards. I wonder what factors would delineate eras. Perhaps it would be similar to golf and baseball, in that ball construction would be the difference: wood, ivory, cellulose, "mud," polyester, phenolic, etc. Cloth could make a difference, too, from "nappy" felt to today's fast cloths.
 
An interesting thought.

Dr. Dave, I know you have already worked tirelessly to keep this rating thread going. But it would be way cool , if after the final 10 AZB’s GOAT are determined, you gave us all one chance to vote with equal weighting. Meaning, we have 5 points but we must vote for 5 different players, giving 1 point to each. Before any voting, give 10 to #1 down to 1 for #10. Might build a different rating.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Scratch85 said:
An interesting thought.

Dr. Dave, I know you have already worked tirelessly to keep this rating thread going. But it would be way cool , if after the final 10 AZB’s GOAT are determined, you gave us all one chance to vote with equal weighting. Meaning, we have 5 points but we must vote for 5 different players, giving 1 point to each. Before any voting, give 10 to #1 down to 1 for #10. Might build a different rating.
Click to expand...
I think this thread is going fine and producing meaningful results; but if you want to try something else, go for it.

This has been a lot of work and I honestly don't care to do it again (not in the near future anyway).

Thanks for the input anyway,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I think this thread is going fine and producing meaningful results; but if you want to try something else, go for it.



This has been a lot of work and I honestly don't care to do it again (not in the near future anyway).



Thanks for the input anyway,

Dave
Click to expand...



No thanks.

As I stated, I know it has been a lot of work and it has been very entertaining for me. No way I would take on something like this.

I think the results are an accurate and meaningful representation of this communities opinion. Which I value. Thanks for your effort.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
jviss said:
Yea, well, then call it "Greatest in Modern Era," not "Greatest of All Time!"

It would be interesting, I think, to establish 'eras' in billiards. I wonder what factors would delineate eras. Perhaps it would be similar to golf and baseball, in that ball construction would be the difference: wood, ivory, cellulose, "mud," polyester, phenolic, etc. Cloth could make a difference, too, from "nappy" felt to today's fast cloths.
Click to expand...

I think there are two eras, the straight pool era and the nine ball era. The straight pool era lasted until the early 1980's, with the nine ball era to follow and the nine all era continues to this day. The secondary forms of pool have been around, for the most part, during both.

It's obvious from this poll that few think the straight pool era significant to this poll, as I'd suggest that Mike Sigel is the only player ever that was among the five best ever in both straight pool (in no particular order, Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel, Mizerak) and nine ball (in no particular order, Sigel, Strickland, Hall, SVB, Lassiter), yet Mike isn't getting much support. As he largely retired from competition in 1993, not so many AZB posters saw Mike in his prime. Even though I watched Mike as early as the late 1970's, count me among those who voted with a bias toward the current era of the game. I place Efren, the king of all-around play and simply the most imaginative player of the last thirty years, at the top. In fact, when Billiards Digest, in 2000, published its list of the 100 best players of the century, I believe Mike Sigel came third, but at least in this poll, he seems a bit forgotten, despite the fact that Earl once called Sigel "the best player I've ever seen".

Still, great poll that I sense most of us are enjoying. Thanks, Dr Dave.
 
sjm said:
It's obvious from this poll that few think the straight pool era significant to this poll, as I'd suggest that Mike Sigel is the only player ever that was among the five best ever in both straight pool (in no particular order, Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel, Mizerak) and nine ball (in no particular order, Sigel, Strickland, Hall, SVB, Lassiter), yet Mike isn't getting much support. As he largely retired from competition in 1993, not so many AZB posters saw Mike in his prime. Even though I watched Mike as early as the late 1970's, count me among those who voted with a bias toward the current era of the game. I place Efren, the king of all-around play and simply the most imaginative player of the last thirty years, at the top. In fact, when Billiards Digest, in 2000, published its list of the 100 best players of the century, I believe Mike Sigel came third, but at least in this poll, he seems a bit forgotten, despite the fact that Earl once called Sigel "the best player I've ever seen".

Still, great poll that I sense most of us are enjoying. Thanks, Dr Dave.
Click to expand...

Efren has also consistently said that Sigel is the best player he ever played.

For the decade of the 80's Sigel was Earl's equal at tournament 9 ball, and I think Sigel is the only player for whom a strong case can be made that he's very near the top of the list for both championship games that dominated professional pool in the 20th century--9 ball and straight pool.

When I think of the GOAT, that means all-around ability, and I would rank the following four players as the greatest all-around players for the era this poll focuses on:

Reyes
Sigel
SVB
Varner

Here was the Billiards Digest ranking of the 50 greatest players in pool and billiards for the 20th century:

50. Jersey Red
49. Allen Gilbert
48. Jeanette Lee
47. Jimmy Moore
46. Dorothy Wise
45. Otto Reiselt
44. Babe Cranfield
43. Lou Butera
42. John Horgan
41. Cisero Murphy
40. Jerome Keogh
39. Allen Hopkins
38. Dallas West
37. Jim Rempe
36. George Sutton
35. Charlie Peterson
34. Robert Cannefax
33. Bennie Allen
32. Ray Martin
31. Ruth McGinnis
30. Johnny Archer
29. Efren Reyes
28. Loree Jon Jones
27. Buddy Hall
26. Larry Johnson (Boston Shorty)
25. Eddie Taylor
24. Jake Shaefer
23. Thomas Hueston
22. Andrew Ponzi
21. Welker Cochran
20. Erwin Rudolph
19. Harold Worst
18. Allison Fisher
17. Earl Strickland
16. Joe Balsis
15. Jean Balukas
14. Nick Varner
13. Johnny Layton
12. Jake Shaefer Jr.
11. Sang Lee
10. Jimmy Caras
9. Luther Lassiter
8. Irving Crane
7. Frank Taberski
6. Steve Mizerak
5. Mike Sigel
4. Alfredo De Oro
3. Ralph Greenleaf
2. Willie Mosconi
1. Willie Hoppe
 
PoolBum said:
Efren has also consistently said that Sigel is the best player he ever played.

For the decade of the 80's Sigel was Earl's equal at tournament 9 ball, and I think Sigel is the only player for whom a strong case can be made that he's very near the top of the list for both championship games that dominated professional pool in the 20th century--9 ball and straight pool.

When I think of the GOAT, that means all-around ability, and I would rank the following four players as the greatest all-around players for the era this poll focuses on:

Reyes
Sigel
SVB
Varner
Click to expand...
Please post a vote to make your opinion official.

PoolBum said:
Here was the Billiards Digest ranking of the 50 greatest players in pool and billiards for the 20th century:

50. Jersey Red
49. Allen Gilbert
48. Jeanette Lee
47. Jimmy Moore
46. Dorothy Wise
45. Otto Reiselt
44. Babe Cranfield
43. Lou Butera
42. John Horgan
41. Cisero Murphy
40. Jerome Keogh
39. Allen Hopkins
38. Dallas West
37. Jim Rempe
36. George Sutton
35. Charlie Peterson
34. Robert Cannefax
33. Bennie Allen
32. Ray Martin
31. Ruth McGinnis
30. Johnny Archer
29. Efren Reyes
28. Loree Jon Jones
27. Buddy Hall
26. Larry Johnson (Boston Shorty)
25. Eddie Taylor
24. Jake Shaefer
23. Thomas Hueston
22. Andrew Ponzi
21. Welker Cochran
20. Erwin Rudolph
19. Harold Worst
18. Allison Fisher
17. Earl Strickland
16. Joe Balsis
15. Jean Balukas
14. Nick Varner
13. Johnny Layton
12. Jake Shaefer Jr.
11. Sang Lee
10. Jimmy Caras
9. Luther Lassiter
8. Irving Crane
7. Frank Taberski
6. Steve Mizerak
5. Mike Sigel
4. Alfredo De Oro
3. Ralph Greenleaf
2. Willie Mosconi
1. Willie Hoppe
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting that. I was going to look it up. Now I don't need to.

Regards,
Dave
 
Keep the votes coming in.

Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 171
2 - Earl Strickland - 91
3 - Shane Van Boening - 90
4 - Nick Varner - 82
5 - Alex Pagulayan - 80
6 - Mike Sigel - 65
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 43
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 18): atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
 
PoolBum said:
Efren has also consistently said that Sigel is the best player he ever played.

For the decade of the 80's Sigel was Earl's equal at tournament 9 ball, and I think Sigel is the only player for whom a strong case can be made that he's very near the top of the list for both championship games that dominated professional pool in the 20th century--9 ball and straight pool.

When I think of the GOAT, that means all-around ability, and I would rank the following four players as the greatest all-around players for the era this poll focuses on:

Reyes
Sigel
SVB
Varner

Here was the Billiards Digest ranking of the 50 greatest players in pool and billiards for the 20th century:

50. Jersey Red
49. Allen Gilbert
48. Jeanette Lee
47. Jimmy Moore
46. Dorothy Wise
45. Otto Reiselt
44. Babe Cranfield
43. Lou Butera
42. John Horgan
41. Cisero Murphy
40. Jerome Keogh
39. Allen Hopkins
38. Dallas West
37. Jim Rempe
36. George Sutton
35. Charlie Peterson
34. Robert Cannefax
33. Bennie Allen
32. Ray Martin
31. Ruth McGinnis
30. Johnny Archer
29. Efren Reyes
28. Loree Jon Jones
27. Buddy Hall
26. Larry Johnson (Boston Shorty)
25. Eddie Taylor
24. Jake Shaefer
23. Thomas Hueston
22. Andrew Ponzi
21. Welker Cochran
20. Erwin Rudolph
19. Harold Worst
18. Allison Fisher
17. Earl Strickland
16. Joe Balsis
15. Jean Balukas
14. Nick Varner
13. Johnny Layton
12. Jake Shaefer Jr.
11. Sang Lee
10. Jimmy Caras
9. Luther Lassiter
8. Irving Crane
7. Frank Taberski
6. Steve Mizerak
5. Mike Sigel
4. Alfredo De Oro
3. Ralph Greenleaf
2. Willie Mosconi
1. Willie Hoppe
Click to expand...

Thanks, I guess senility is starting to set in for me, but the point was meant to be that the already retired Mike Sigel finished higher in that Billiard Digest ranking poll than any of those against whom he competed, which I think made sense. Man, that is one tough top 10 right there!
 
Second Round:

Efren Reyes 2
Earl Strickland 1
SVB 1
Johnny Archer 1

On the biggest stages, under the brightest lights, with the largest prize checks ever; Efren could catch a gear and beat anyone, and make it look like he was unbeatable.

Strickland, SVB, and Archer have made 9 Ball look easy at times. Look at all of their tournament wins.

SVB "loves" 10 Ball.
 
Last edited:
Surprised by the drop-off from 5 to 7. Don’t disagree with the position but definitely don’t see a 32 point difference between Alex and Wu, with Sigel firmly in the middle. I see them as quite equal with time being the provenance.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
PoolBum said:
... Here was the Billiards Digest ranking of the 50 greatest players in pool and billiards for the 20th century:
... 42. John Horgan ...
Click to expand...
John Horgan!?! Stumped me. He won both the pool and carom championships.

For those who want to see the basis for the rankings, they appeared in four consecutive issues of Billiards Digest:

August 1999 # 35-50
September 1999 # 21-35
October 1999 # 6-20
November 1999 # 1-5

At the end of the first article, there is a list of those who didn't quite make the cut and those who were excluded because they were not Americans. Both lists are alphabetical in the magazine and the numbering is mine for convenience. Any spelling erors are the fault of Billiards Digest.

Missed the cut:
  1. Ronnie Allen
  2. Jay Bozeman
  3. Kim Davenport
  4. Danny Diliberto
  5. Robin Dodson
  6. Mike Eufemia
  7. Carlos Hallon
  8. Gerda Hofstatter
  9. Bob Hunter
  10. Tom Jennings
  11. George Kelley
  12. Mary Kenniston-Guarino
  13. Augie Kieckhefer
  14. Johnny Kling
  15. Ewa Laurance
  16. Onofrio Lauri
  17. Edward Lee
  18. Larry Lisciotti
  19. Jose Parica
  20. Joe Procita
  21. Edward Ralph
  22. Louie Roberts
  23. Andrew St. Jean
  24. Vivian Villarreal
  25. Charles Weston
Damn furriners:
  1. Torbjörn Blomdahl
  2. Raymond Ceulemans
  3. Fong-Pang Chao
  4. Roger Conti
  5. Karen Corr
  6. Fred Davis
  7. Joe Davis
  8. Steve Davis
  9. Ludo Dielis
  10. Stephen Hendry
  11. Alex Higgins
  12. Dick Jaspers
  13. Nobuaki Kobayashi
  14. Walter Lindrum
  15. Kinrey Matsuyama
  16. Oliver Ortmann
  17. John Pulman
  18. Ray Reardon
  19. Isidro Ribas
  20. Ralf Souquet
  21. Edmond Sousa
  22. Raymond Steylaerts
  23. Maurice Vignaux
  24. Rene Vingerhoedt
  25. Rex Williams

That makes a total of 100 players considered. Perhaps Stu is not quite as senile as he was thinking. :grin:

And as far as the original top 10, five or six of the foreigners easily belong in that group.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top