John Schmidt's 626

[DynoDan]

Yes, in hindsight. If the combo appears to be dead, it eliminates the hard shot with hard position. My own tendency in a situation like this is to believe that the easy solution will work. That's a bad tendency.

Maybe fatigue & luck can also combine to delude. Even if the balls were dirty/sticky, the 3 looks too far away to throw, and making the combo by cutting the 8 might result in a CB kiss (?), or a scratch since it would likely have to be shot so hard to make, whitey might get away.
Just demonstrates the difference in thinking between record attempts & competition, where it’s always better to end up without a viable break shot than to sell out trying to make something that can’t go.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Is that the layout as well?

The 6 and 4 afford a simple way to get under the three balls with all three three looking good for the back corners. Yes I know hundreds of balls down but that kind of intermediate failure shows a guy out of headroom. 5" pockets indeed...

Which ball is your key ball and which is your break ball for the next rack?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, is that diagram accurate? I'm assuming it is and it appears there's somewhere around 3/8ths of an inch between the 8 and 3. The 12 looks to be frozen to the 8.
If that's the case then I can't see how he missed the shot.
I don't know if it was mentioned but I'm assuming he hit the 8 1st, not the 12. But you keep mentioning left english which would be counterproductive if contacting the 8 1st and pretty much irrelevant if hitting the 12 1st.
I'm confused as to what actually happened. Could you clarify what he did and what if anything he said about why he thought it missed. Because from what I see on the diagram this shot is 100 % makeable unless mishit somehow.

Sorry, I misremembered how the shot missed. I went by my not-so-accurate diagram.

Here is the actual screen capture just before John shot the shot. The orangish ball is actually the 3 determined by identifying all the balls during the break shot at the start of the rack. The 8-3 is pointed to the short rail, and John was cutting the 8 ball hoping to cut the 3 to the right. It didn't cut at all.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Sorry, I misremembered how the shot missed. I went by my not-so-accurate diagram.

Here is the actual screen capture just before John shot the shot. The orangish ball is actually the 3 determined by identifying all the balls during the break shot at the start of the rack. The 8-3 is pointed to the short rail, and John was cutting the 8 ball hoping to cut the 3 to the right. It didn't cut at all.

View attachment 559059

If that’s the case, even though the 8 ball and 3 ball appear to be 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch apart, apparently the throw effect (to the left) more than offset the cut effect (to the right) on the combo.

I’ve played straight pool 50+ years and I still struggle with figuring out at what distance between two objects balls differentiate between cut and throw. I certainly think how clean/polished the surface of the object balls is a factor / variable in that distance.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If that’s the case, even though the 8 ball and 3 ball appear to be 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch apart, apparently the throw effect (to the left) more than offset the cut effect (to the right) on the combo.

I think another factor was the ball next to the 8 that limits the amount of cut. A thinner cut might have gotten the ball to the pocket in spite of the throw.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

John was cutting the 8 ball hoping to cut the 3 to the right. It didn't cut at all.

...the 8 ball and 3 ball appear to be 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch apart, apparently the throw effect (to the left) more than offset the cut effect (to the right) on the combo.

That's expected according to Dr. Dave's analysis on his Small Gap Combination Shots info page. According to Dave:

"When the gap between the OBs is 3/8″ (9.5mm) or 1/6 a ball diameter or 1/3 a ball radius, the 2nd ball heads very straight (i.e., the throw effect cancels the cut effect) over a fairly wide range of 1st-ball angles, regardless of ball conditions."

So John's world record run ended because he didn't know what Dr. Dave knows. #!$^% science guys.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

i have not read thru all the replies
did he set a new record or not ????
yes/no is ok

 

[arnaldo]

Bob,

It's certain that when John got down to shoot that 8-3 combo he felt that was his best option for continuing the run.

As 14.1 fans and devotees, we are all rightfully -- of course futilely -- speculating on other (better percentage?) solutions John may have had. To your knowledge has John himself -- in retrospect -- said anything about what he now feels might have been a better, more reliable solution(s) to the very unfortunate, tough spot he was in?

I'm near-certain that he sometimes at least opines to you or others that pocketing the up-table 6-ball into the corner and getting shape on the 4-ball might have been as equally reliable a solution to the dilemma (fully acknowledging that massaging the combo felt right and therefore correct for him).

Heard any "coulda" alternate solutions that he's casually expressed in retrospect?

Arnaldo

 

[jimmyg]

That's expected according to Dr. Dave's analysis on his Small Gap Combination Shots info page. According to Dave:

"When the gap between the OBs is 3/8″ (9.5mm) or 1/6 a ball diameter or 1/3 a ball radius, the 2nd ball heads very straight (i.e., the throw effect cancels the cut effect) over a fairly wide range of 1st-ball angles, regardless of ball conditions."

So John's world record run ended because he didn't know what Dr. Dave knows. #!$^% science guys.

pj
chgo

Looking at a computer monitor it's not nearly as clear as in person but, to me, it looks as though the 8 and 10 balls are kissing, and if they are then maybe the 8 caromed off the 10 at the wrong angle to pocket the 3. Possible?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Looking at a computer monitor it's not nearly as clear as in person but, to me, it looks as though the 8 and 10 balls are kissing, and if they are then maybe the 8 caromed off the 10 at the wrong angle to pocket the 3. Possible?

That is the 12 against the 8 and I think you might be right. I think that ball does limit how thin the 8 can hit the 3. Also I imagine that the 8 rubbing across the 12 will get some right side spin, which throws the 3 the wrong way.

I don't recall John saying anything specific about that final shot and what he might have done differently. Of course at straight pool, the last five are not supposed to look like that.

 

[Bob Jewett]

i have not read thru all the replies
did he set a new record or not ????
yes/no is ok

Some say yes, some say no. Who to believe? This may explain things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnrdetFAo1o

 

[DynoDan]

I think another factor was the ball next to the 8 that limits the amount of cut. A thinner cut might have gotten the ball to the pocket in spite of the throw.

Assuming the striped ball moved. If not, then it wasn’t actually a factor.
If the 8 was indeed frozen, and the over-cut angle to the 3 carom-combo was dead on, then that shot choice WOULD have been too tempting to resist.

 

[JoeyInCali]

.......................

 

[sparkle84]

I think another factor was the ball next to the 8 that limits the amount of cut. A thinner cut might have gotten the ball to the pocket in spite of the throw.

Ok, so my evaluation of the ball positions was correct. I'm very surprised he missed this shot.
This shot is almost unmissable as long as you load it up with right. That will negate the CIT and turn the 3 right in the pocket.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Ok, so my evaluation of the ball positions was correct. I'm very surprised he missed this shot.
This shot is almost unmissable as long as you load it up with right. That will negate the CIT and turn the 3 right in the pocket.

I think it depends on exactly how the balls are sitting. It's real hard to tell to which part of the pocket or how close to the pocket the line of centers of the 8-3 is. Also, the separation is not clear. 1/4th-inch? 1/8th-inch?

The ball didn't rattle in the jaws, so it ended up a long way from what John figured.

 

[sparkle84]

I think it depends on exactly how the balls are sitting. It's real hard to tell to which part of the pocket or how close to the pocket the line of centers of the 8-3 is. Also, the separation is not clear. 1/4th-inch? 1/8th-inch?

The ball didn't rattle in the jaws, so it ended up a long way from what John figured.

Definitely depends on how far you had to go to the right. I was basing my opinion on your original diagram where it appeared to be missing by only an inch or so. I'll have to ask John when I see him which unfortunately probably won't be until the 2021 American 14.1.

 

[one stroke]

That's all the verification I personally need. There isn't anybody more knowledgeable in pool, he has always been known to be a straight shooter about things, and I can't conceive of any reason for him to want or need to lie here.

I wouldn't doubt what he thinks he saw his integrity isn't in question however that still doesn't mean it's still not in question digital video editing is so good in the hands of a professional the average person simply is incapable of picking it up , not saying it was just saying it's possible because it is

1

 

[Bob Jewett]

I wouldn't doubt what he thinks he saw his integrity isn't in question however that still doesn't mean it's still not in question digital video editing is so good in the hands of a professional the average person simply is incapable of picking it up , not saying it was just saying it's possible because it is

1

I'm pretty sure I know where the video was between the event and when I saw it. I'm satisfied that what I saw was what happened. And as I mentioned before, I already saw two 400+ runs by John in person, so I know he was capable of 527+ given enough time.

In any case, the record has been recognized by the applicable record recognizing organization. Did you know that it was rumored that twice during Mosconi's 526 the OB jumped out of the pocket and wasn't really pocketed? See how those random unsubstantiated rumors work, "one stroke"?

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm pretty sure I know where the video was between the event and when I saw it. I'm satisfied that what I saw was what happened. And as I mentioned before, I already saw two 400+ runs by John in person, so I know he was capable of 527+ given enough time.

In any case, the record has been recognized by the applicable record recognizing organization. Did you know that it was rumored that twice during Mosconi's 526 the OB jumped out of the pocket and wasn't really pocketed? See how those random unsubstantiated rumors work, "one stroke"?

I believe it has been shown in discussions here that in the case of the "applicable record recognizing organization," it turned out to be two guys at the BCA with questionable 14.1 bona fides -- so their recognition comes with the distinct flavor of a "certificate of authenticity" you might get along with a painting bought during a cruise ship auction.

I'd also like to point out that you were the monger who spread the unattributed rumor here about Mosconi's run.

Lou Figueroa

 

[The_JV]

Whew... 726 and done. Video up coming once I figure out this damn Blender.

I can't get passed this damn donut tutorial...lol