Gotta lead anyway. Some will drink.
Is This A Difficult Shot For Most?
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
It seems you're misinterpreting my post. The way you advocate learning this game in general and position play in particular is about as simplistic as it gets. Failure to concentrate on the correct way to play in order to enhance the learning curve is the largest contributing factor as to why the development of US players lags way behind the ROW.
Seems you're the one off base. The conversation was on the pedantics of the original position shot; NOT the finer points of pattern play. A large part of the problem here is for many, speed control isn't part of their shooting technique. Simple drills can set that straight by developing a zone the player can incorporate without compromising shot accuracy.
And it shouldn't be.... Play the game so speed isn't a large variable. That's the point and nearly all the conversation has been centered around it.
No reason both can't be done...
Aim for a specific spot in the "shape zone".
pj
chgo
I think that is the best way to do it. When you actually need precise position, you will have practiced at it on all your "sloppier" shots.
In the same way, try for the center of the pocket or a specific part of the pocket even on easy shots and notice where the ball actually goes. You will develop the accuracy needed on harder shots.
JC
Coos Cues
I have a knack for finding the bottom of the side pocket on anything requiring a rebound within a ball or so of it. Most players in my skill range have the same lack of confidence in the precise rebound angle required for this position shot. The risk just isn't worth the reward. A man's got to know his limits.
Johnny Archer told me at a clinic one time many years ago that the first question he asks himself in his pre shot routine is whether a scratch is possible and that stuck with me. A scratch being possible for him and for me are two different questions.
Even if you come up well short of your ideal position on the seven you can still stun across the table to get back on the 8, An easy and safe shot. A 600 fargo guy like me is playing the six back toward center table every time.
Agreed... but there's a difference I noted earlier about practice .vs. competition. In practice do whatever you want. In competition do what gives you the best odds.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I can attest to wildly different table conditions across various tables within any of the local rooms, let alone my region. What good is dialing in speed on a shot at home, when the next time I need to pull it out the bag it's on a table 50% faster...? What good is practicing banks on my table that has dead rails...?
The idea is to practice the game in a manner that provides you the best odds in winning. Otherwise, what's the point in practicing..? If you feel the best way to play the game is construct your patterns around shots that require the speed control you've been practicing at home, well.., that's yours call, and I'm not going to say your wrong. I will say you while you're trying to sort out the speed on a table you've never touched before. The other guy who has sculpted his game to not rely on speed control as much will be enjoying your pain...
That's cool.... Whatever you're most comfortable with. The thing to note is, to sewer in the side pocket on the opposite side, you need to spin it down table. Your center table shot contains those elements to steer the CB to the side pocket. My option does not. I'm not trying to bring the CB down table at all. Just get to the opposite long rail.
If something is in question then I do the same that Johnny suggested to you. Again, another reason just to get the ball to the other side. Less variables, and no chance to sewer.
JC
Coos Cues
I didn't mean my target was center table I would of course aim my speed for the correct side of the seven ball. I just mean I would play the shot into space leaving the other side rail alone understanding that if I came up short I would need to force the cue ball across and back to get on the 8.
I also understand that players of higher ability than I am play the shot exactly like you advise every single time. I watch it all the time on video. It is the correct shot if you have good control of whitey and rebound angles. I'm not quite there yet.
Oh my bad... I thought you meant to work the CB literally to center table.
Something to keep in mind if you want to experiment. When attempting to reach the opposite rail, the margin for error is quite large, and probably provides you a greater chance of success. The goal here isn't to shoot the 8 ball into the same pocket, but to get underneath it and pot it in opposite corner on the same long rail. If by chance you get an angle that allows you to pull the CB above the 8 to play it in the same pocket as the 7, then great, but that's not the intent. At least not mine....
I tried this shot just now and I'm with Fran on this one. Low left and punch it. Speed is actually quite forgiving on this, probably because the angle coming backwards off the rail scrubs speed. I found it a forced shot to come across table off the side rail, and too close to the side pocket for my liking. This is not a very steep angle and you need to really hit it, at least on my table, to get it across table and off the rail.
Not just Fran... Most of us have called out the low left, including myself. I think anyone that remotely dialed in would go that route. I know I would unless I'm playing on something real fast.
I'm just trying to point out that there are better ways to go about the shot, that provide a greater likelyhood of a positive outcome.
I must have gotten people mixed up so I'm not sure what you advocated. I think low left is the best liklihood of a positive outcome, at least for me. The shot is long enough that the speed required to go across table becomes an issue, and spinning it up with inside to go 3 rails is equally risky. Doesn't matter what the position zone looks like for the cb if you miss the shot. Plus, with the low left shot there is still quite a large position zone, IMO.
It seems we're finally getting to the crux of the matter. Went off on a bunch of tangents but that's ok, happens on most of these threads. I think everyone realizes by now there's only 2 ways to shoot this shot.
Both ways require crossing the zone which hopefully will please straightline.
Dan and JC have noted scratch possibilities but that really only exists on one of the shots. To scratch on the other you'd have to be having an extremely bad day.
The JV would shoot it one way but is indicating the other shot might possibly be more "correct". I'd disagree and would regardless of the speed of the table.
Perhaps I'll get little agreement on this but here's my synopsis on speed. It's a feel thing. Sure, a change in equipment can initially cause problems but any decent player in reasonable stroke will adjust to the conditions fairly quickly.
Whichever shot you choose here you are forced to control both speed and direction but to a different degree for each. The speed for both is reasonably controllable but as Dan notes and IMO the speed is definitely more forgiving going one rail. The same is true of direction, hence, tip position becomes a bigger consideration when executing the 2 rail shot. Going 1 rail with low left, direction becomes, to a certain extent, irrelevant.
JMO but when evaluating all the variables it leads me to the conclusion that the bigger MOE lies with the one rail route.
Far enough... For the record I would shoot the Low Left, one rail version, but still think the two rail straight across will provide a greater chance for better results across all skill levels.
One rail contains both speed control and a grasp of how the CB will react to the rail with applicable spin. Lets forget about the smaller landing zone.
Two rails straight across is nearly all speed control but has the luxury of a massive +/- of roughly 12" which includes the second rail.
I only suggest that those who think the two rail option doesn't hold water merely try it before dismissing it. Not saying it's right way for anyone to play it. Only that there's another way to play it. I can't speak for anyone else on the forum, but I'm willing to admit there are times when I struggle with either my game or table conditions. The two railer removes some variables that could make lives less stressful when thinsg are going bad.
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PoolHallPaul
Member
It doesn't matter which route you go if you don't use right speed.
I tried the two railer and that is why I ruled it out. You have to hit the shot too hard and you will flirt with the side pocket. With a little steeper angle the two rail shot would be preferable.
Right on... At least you tried it. It's really a table dependant shot. I know I wouldn't dream to try the two railer on my table at home.
Obviously.... The point is, with the two railer your speed control can be way off and still get positive results.