Is the National Billiards League legit, or a scam?

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
In our tournaments in which we have a Calcutta (our weekly tournament as well as our bigger tournaments) only the participating players are allowed to bid / buy in the Calcutta auction.

Additionally, in our bigger tournaments, generally only our regular weekly tournament players that have supported our weekly tournaments at least to some level of regularity are allowed to play.


Chris,

What you are doing is a different kettle of fish than open events down here. Anybody in the world can play and with the prize money and calcutta in maybe four to six events a year knocking on a 100 thousand dollars we attract international fields sometimes and every big dog in the country generally comes down sooner or later. Sometimes these guys take our money, sometimes not, but they have played for it and earned it. I just object to the people that don't even play pool coming to the hall and rolling out deep pockets to take the calcutta money. Generally calcutta money is wide open to bid on so Even locals we never see before or since at a pool hall slop up to the trough. These people in general, gamblers that don't even play pool coming from near and far, they are the ones that annoy me.

I have played in events like yours, end of year championships, where you had to be at least somewhat of a regular to play, pistol matches and stock car races. Won a few of those so they must have been OK!(grin)

Hu
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Tournaments based on entry fees is nothing more than a money pyramid system, with little or no money from sponsors. In my opinion, thats one of the reasons this is a broken system to support this sport. With billions of dollars spent on advertising every year, this sport will never see a dime of that money unless it gets organized and presents itself as a viable platform to attract the advertisers. That requires leadership, not promoters, organized events, not who can afford to pay the high entry fees. Advertisers want to know we have viewers that can be counted, in the millions, NOT locally! Pro players from around the world need to get on the same sheet of music, and work together, not against each other. By creating events that gather a world viewing audience, then you can present a platform advertisers are interested in getting involved in. Pool isn't just an American sport anymore, its international! Contrary to anyone's beliefs, American players no longer lead the charge in this sport, we've been way out classed by the foriegn players today, who take this sport way more seriously than the average American player today does. Its easy to pencil out something on paper, look at it, balance out the numbers, and tell yourself this works, it'll help fix pool. But, when it's no different than anything already tried in the past, what's the chances it'll work now if its failed many times in the past already?

Math works great, on paper, but when you apply those figures to reality, that's when it fails, because people don't want to support a broken system anymore, and can see right through the next pyramid scheme before it can even get off the ground, and bail out so fast, leaving everyone involved wondering why it failed. It fails because its easy to do the math using everyone else's money, just NOT your own!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
A system that works, will support the Professional players for sure, but it won't work if the amateurs are the ones expected to pay the money to support the Pros! I've said it a thousand times if I've said it once, there MUST be a separation between the Pros that belong at the top, and all those who feel they have a RIGHT to play those Pros, because they paid an entry fee to do just that, to buy their entertainment against those players!! If they had to EARN the right to play, you'd never see them playing against ANY of the Pros!!
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Fans don't get to play with, or against any Pros in ANY other sports, so why do they get to in pool?

Careful what you wish for. Fans that are no hopers and just want to try their hand playing a pro or two are a major cash stream for pro's. Besides which, a tournament might draw a hundred amateurs and two or three pro's. Take away the amateurs and there isn't enough prize money to hit the late night special at waffle house!

Until something better comes along the pro's need amateurs playing with them. They are whining because top "amateurs" can knock out many of the pro's the way the tournament matches are structured. Most of the "pro's" are pro's in name only. Who decides who a pro is? I'm a pro because I say so? How many are making a living playing pool and can document it?

Hu
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
A system that works, will support the Professional players for sure, but it won't work if the amateurs are the ones expected to pay the money to support the Pros! I've said it a thousand times if I've said it once, there MUST be a separation between the Pros that belong at the top, and all those who feel they have a RIGHT to play those Pros, because they paid an entry fee to do just that, to buy their entertainment against those players!! If they had to EARN the right to play, you'd never see them playing against ANY of the Pros!!
I strongly agree with this. The elite events should be restricted to elite players. The "dead money" entries may still be needed to make ends meet at the local tourney level.

I have never believed that the amateurs had either the obligation or the inclination to financially support the top pros, and there's no particular reason they should.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
I strongly agree with this. The elite events should be restricted to elite players. The "dead money" entries may still be needed to make ends meet at the local tourney level.

I have never believed that the amateurs had either the obligation or the inclination to financially support the top pros, and there's no particular reason they should.


The amateurs are under no obligation to help the pro's. However what I am saying is without the three to ten thousand dollar tournaments that draw players from a few hundred miles or so the pro's would not be scraping by as well as they are now. Most of these amateurs know they aren't likely to take big money home, lucky if they break even. Without them, there wouldn't be eight pro's in an event. For the venues and sponsors it would make a lot more sense to ban the few pro's and just hold amateur events instead of opens. Exactly what the venues will have to do if the amateurs get tired of donating.

These events are the ones I see as intermediate. They are bigger than the weekly and monthly tournaments and sometimes grow into something nice. Some of these events were paying over forty thousand plus calcuttas. Between the two they topped a hundred thousand pre covid. Even at purses of ten thousand or above they draw players from several states. Looks to me like somebody could scrape by if they carefully planned things to hit one of these three to ten thousand dollar events most weekends. Most can get into decent action during or after the event too.

Not claiming these intermediate level tournaments are ideal, but they beat hell out of nothing! I really don't see why the pro's should whine about playing amateurs other than acknowledging that the amateurs are so close to the pro's that pro's that stand a chance of cashing nicely risk being eliminated early by an amateur. If they can't beat amateurs they aren't too elite are they?

Hu
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The amateurs are under no obligation to help the pro's. However what I am saying is without the three to ten thousand dollar tournaments that draw players from a few hundred miles or so the pro's would not be scraping by as well as they are now. Most of these amateurs know they aren't likely to take big money home, lucky if they break even. Without them, there wouldn't be eight pro's in an event. For the venues and sponsors it would make a lot more sense to ban the few pro's and just hold amateur events instead of opens. Exactly what the venues will have to do if the amateurs get tired of donating.

These events are the ones I see as intermediate. They are bigger than the weekly and monthly tournaments and sometimes grow into something nice. Some of these events were paying over forty thousand plus calcuttas. Between the two they topped a hundred thousand pre covid. Even at purses of ten thousand or above they draw players from several states. Looks to me like somebody could scrape by if they carefully planned things to hit one of these three to ten thousand dollar events most weekends. Most can get into decent action during or after the event too.

Not claiming these intermediate level tournaments are ideal, but they beat hell out of nothing! I really don't see why the pro's should whine about playing amateurs other than acknowledging that the amateurs are so close to the pro's that pro's that stand a chance of cashing nicely risk being eliminated early by an amateur. If they can't beat amateurs they aren't too elite are they?

Hu
Shorter races is just another handicap for the true Pros in order to give the amateurs the hopes of winning. Not all Pros gamble. Calcutta money is never counted in the prize money, and added back into the event for the players, and is often won by nonplayers. Add it all up and it still spells out a broken system, because Pro participation does not equal even a 50% chance of making a decent living.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool has always been an egalitarian sport.

You pays your money and the next round you're playing Efren. And IMO there's nothing wrong with that. The sport would have died off a long time ago if this were not the case. Dead money has been supporting the pros for years and there really isn't any other financial model that's going to provide the tournament dough (read: Pro Player Retirement Fund) to keep things going.

The day pool has Rolex and Cadillac sponsoring tournaments is the day you can talk about pro player only events.

Lou Figueroa
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Shorter races is just another handicap for the true Pros in order to give the amateurs the hopes of winning. Not all Pros gamble. Calcutta money is never counted in the prize money, and added back into the event for the players, and is often won by nonplayers. Add it all up and it still spells out a broken system, because Pro participation does not equal even a 50% chance of making a decent living.

Calcutta money is never counted in the prize money however that is exactly what the NBL tried to do. Counted or not, it is often on the table as is the opportunity to wager on yourself in private matches.

Looking at the AZB money list Dennis Orcollo is the top winner, $44,000 before travel and expenses. He would make more net flipping burgers at mcdonalds. The first American is Shane, $14,000. What did I say about flipping burgers? Then I took a look at third in the US. $7,000 and change. I know there was some outside money that came in but without this outside money even Shane couldn't survive.

I am a professional shooter. I shot cash pistol events for a couple of years, some paid as much as twenty bucks to win! Rifles paid even better. I think I took down $35 from almost sweeping a weekly event and several hundred could be won at an international event shooting against 119 other people! Surely everyone will agree I am a pro shooter. No? I have set four local records, unofficially bettered a world record. Surely that is elite! Damn! Still nobody going to call me a professional shooter and it costs me almost two bucks for a cheap cup of coffee!

Now tell me about the elite pro pool players that can't cover travel and one meal a day from winnings. Pool was five or ten years away from being viable in 1970. Some fifty years later, it is still five or ten years away from being viable. Bench race all you want to, without some serious adjustments in attitudes, in another fifty years mens pro pool in the US still won't be viable.

Hu
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Pool has always been an egalitarian sport.

You pays your money and the next round you're playing Efren. And IMO there's nothing wrong with that. The sport would have died off a long time ago if this were not the case. Dead money has been supporting the pros for years and there really isn't any other financial model that's going to provide the tournament dough (read: Pro Player Retirement Fund) to keep things going.

The day pool has Rolex and Cadillac sponsoring tournaments is the day you can talk about pro player only events.

Lou Figueroa
Wrong sponsor's, and trust me, there's PLENTY of billion dollar sponsor's just waiting to jump on board, because if we provide eyeballs, they'll provide the dollars. The key thing you're missing out on, is that the sponsor's products MUST be affordable to all who view, NOT the select minority!!!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Calcutta money is never counted in the prize money however that is exactly what the NBL tried to do. Counted or not, it is often on the table as is the opportunity to wager on yourself in private matches.

Looking at the AZB money list Dennis Orcollo is the top winner, $44,000 before travel and expenses. He would make more net flipping burgers at mcdonalds. The first American is Shane, $14,000. What did I say about flipping burgers? Then I took a look at third in the US. $7,000 and change. I know there was some outside money that came in but without this outside money even Shane couldn't survive.

I am a professional shooter. I shot cash pistol events for a couple of years, some paid as much as twenty bucks to win! Rifles paid even better. I think I took down $35 from almost sweeping a weekly event and several hundred could be won at an international event shooting against 119 other people! Surely everyone will agree I am a pro shooter. No? I have set four local records, unofficially bettered a world record. Surely that is elite! Damn! Still nobody going to call me a professional shooter and it costs me almost two bucks for a cheap cup of coffee!

Now tell me about the elite pro pool players that can't cover travel and one meal a day from winnings. Pool was five or ten years away from being viable in 1970. Some fifty years later, it is still five or ten years away from being viable. Bench race all you want to, without some serious adjustments in attitudes, in another fifty years mens pro pool in the US still won't be viable.

Hu
Screenshot_20210303-122621_Google.jpg

Thats the list of sponsor's to go after, NOT Cadillac or Rolex!!!
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
View attachment 593213
Thats the list of sponsor's to go after, NOT Cadillac or Rolex!!!
Problem is most(if not all) are run by complete butthurt lefty douchebags. I wouldn't want them anywhere near my events, $$ or not. I doubt the person(s) in charge of their ad budgets have ever heard of pool much less want to get involved. IMO you've got a WAY better shot at getting gambling(casinos, on-line,etc.) and weed $$ than ANY top corporation.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Problem is most(if not all) are run by complete butthurt lefty douchebags. I wouldn't want them anywhere near my events, $$ or not. I doubt the person(s) in charge of their ad budgets have ever heard of pool much less want to get involved. IMO you've got a WAY better shot at getting gambling(casinos, on-line,etc.) and weed $$ than ANY top corporation.
You couldn't be more wrong than if you TRIED to be wrong!

And Gambling to support pool? Thats laughable! Tell me something, WHY is there NO gambling allowed during the DDC OR the US Open 9B championships, are they NOT held in CASINOS?
You sir, have no idea about how the gambling in this country works, and the hoops that have to be jumped through just to make it work the way it does now. Relying on gambling to support pool is no different than buying a first class ticket on the Titanic before leaving port!!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Problem is most(if not all) are run by complete butthurt lefty douchebags. I wouldn't want them anywhere near my events, $$ or not. I doubt the person(s) in charge of their ad budgets have ever heard of pool much less want to get involved. IMO you've got a WAY better shot at getting gambling(casinos, on-line,etc.) and weed $$ than ANY top corporation.
How many of them that your so willing to knock thinking they don't know anything about pool, know anything about living poor? Because their products are bought by the masses, NOT by the few such as yourself. Wouldn't want them anywhere near YOUR events???...when was the last event YOU sponsored, and how much did you throw in, just out of curiosity???
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How many of them that your so willing to knock thinking they don't know anything about pool, know anything about living poor? Because their products are bought by the masses, NOT by the few such as yourself. Wouldn't want them anywhere near YOUR events???...when was the last event YOU sponsored, and how much did you throw in, just out of curiosity???
NEVER sponsored ANYTHING. LAST thing i'd get involved with would be pool. Do you have ANY idea where Matchroom's biggest source of funds comes from????????????? GAMBLING(currently PartyPoker). Always has been. Keep dreaming. BTW, there are NO laws in Vegas regarding gambling and pool. DCC(not DDC meathead) is under the auspices of the Indiana Gaming Commission. There are NO universal laws pertaining to pool and gambling in casinos. If you think major corp's are going to get involved with pool you're delusional. I'd love to see you pitching this trainwreck to a major co.'s advertising manager.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
NEVER sponsored ANYTHING. LAST thing i'd get involved with would be pool. Do you have ANY idea where Matchroom's biggest source of funds comes from????????????? GAMBLING(currently PartyPoker). Always has been. Keep dreaming. BTW, there are NO laws in Vegas regarding gambling and pool. DCC(not DDC meathead) is under the auspices of the Indiana Gaming Commission. There are NO universal laws pertaining to pool and gambling in casinos. If you think major corp's are going to get involved with pool you're delusional. I'd love to see you pitching this trainwreck to a major co.'s advertising manager.
Sorry, but your wong about Vegas a d gambling on pool in an event, NOT allowed!!
 
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