Setting the pin dead nuts

JC

JC

Coos Cues
This has been a bit of a challenge for me. I use modified 3/8 10 with a smooth barrel. The hole is always straight as the pins always turn with less than .001 runout on the tip dry. I have drilled them with a three flute carbide bit, bored them, reamed them. Tried it all and it's all straight.

I have tried a tight fit, a thou or so of clearance, a deeper barrel hole, a deeper threaded end. The problem comes in when gluing the pin in. My pins have a glue relief slot. I have used 5 minute epoxy, 20 minute epoxy, west systems, max 1618. After I put the pin in with the glue I can chuck it up and it's usually off by maybe a couple of thou max. I can push it over with a tiny thumb pressure and get it turning within a thou every time. Baby sit it for an hour with it sitting in the lathe and it's still dead on. Take it out of the lathe and stand it on end and the next day when the glue is cured the damn thing might have three thou of runout at the end of an inch of pin sticking out. Now of course this doesn't make the cue crooked as the joint faces take care of that and you really can't even see it with your naked eye spinning but it's frustrating as of course I want it perfect if possible. I have checked a lot of pins on other cues and they really aren't as good or better but that's not the point.

Any tricks or tips?
 
JC said:
This has been a bit of a challenge for me. I use modified 3/8 10 with a smooth barrel. The hole is always straight as the pins always turn with less than .001 runout on the tip dry. I have drilled them with a three flute carbide bit, bored them, reamed them. Tried it all and it's all straight.

I have tried a tight fit, a thou or so of clearance, a deeper barrel hole, a deeper threaded end. The problem comes in when gluing the pin in. My pins have a glue relief slot. I have used 5 minute epoxy, 20 minute epoxy, west systems, max 1618. After I put the pin in with the glue I can chuck it up and it's usually off by maybe a couple of thou max. I can push it over with a tiny thumb pressure and get it turning within a thou every time. Baby sit it for an hour with it sitting in the lathe and it's still dead on. Take it out of the lathe and stand it on end and the next day when the glue is cured the damn thing might have three thou of runout at the end of an inch of pin sticking out. Now of course this doesn't make the cue crooked as the joint faces take care of that and you really can't even see it with your naked eye spinning but it's frustrating as of course I want it perfect if possible. I have checked a lot of pins on other cues and they really aren't as good or better but that's not the point.

Any tricks or tips?
Click to expand...

Where are you getting your pins? I have some from overseas that have the glue relief and they run out a bit. I only use the pins unique sells and I have no problem holding .001 or less.


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str8eight said:
Where are you getting your pins? I have some from overseas that have the glue relief and they run out a bit. I only use the pins unique sells and I have no problem holding .001 or less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Thanks for asking because that prompted me to go check some pins. They are from Tom Migliore but alas some have up to .003 runout while others are within a half thou. I never checked them because of who built them just ASSumed they were straight. I believe he makes them for unique and atlas. I'm just pissing in the wind I guess with too many variables. I could straighten each one individually in the chuck before using them I guess and that may be where I'm headed. They will bend.
 
Do you use gauge pins to check your go/no go tolerances? How loose does the back end of the pin feel when dry fit? It might be a tight hole on the face, but if your drill bit is crooked then who knows.
 
Is it possible that the cue itself has a tiny amount of run out in it before you install the pin? Also if you were to use the sanding mandrels last that might take out the little bit of run out with the finish build.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
Do you use gauge pins to check your go/no go tolerances? How loose does the back end of the pin feel when dry fit? It might be a tight hole on the face, but if your drill bit is crooked then who knows.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. I can take my drill bit out of the chuck and insert it in the hole after blowing it out and it turns straight back at the chuck end. I don't have any gauge pins. It all feels pretty tight when I push the barrel in prior to engaging the threads at the bottom of the hole.
cueman said:
Is it possible that the cue itself has a tiny amount of run out in it before you install the pin? Also if you were to use the sanding mandrels last that might take out the little bit of run out with the finish build.
Click to expand...
I guess that's possible but I set my pins after my final taper prior to any sanding and chuck the joint collar directly in the jaws of my metal lathe. At that point I can reinsert my carbide drill bit and it runs within a thou.

After checking a bunch of these pins some are just not straight. I have a stainless one laying on my lathe that I dry fit with and ultimately may install a different one when I glue it in, maybe brass. They are easy to straighten on my metal lathe and probably equally easy to bend down the road in service. Maybe I should just be happy with .002 which you can't really detect with your eye. It is set in wood after all which is a movable object. As long as the faces are true the shaft is dead straight rolling the joint on the rail even with the pin a tiny bit off.
 
I would never drill a final hole to fit anything I wanted to be close to finished size. But that's just me.
Anything I wanted close to precise is going to be bored out.
 
I have never bored the hole for a pin.... always have step drilled the hole with 3 flute solid carbide drills.......... I hold it straight with the tail stock until the 5 min epoxy sets.............. have done several hundred like that....... all come out with in a couple thou................... never had a problem

Kim
 
I use a 4-flute 1/4 carbide end-mill and a router to "bore" the .380"-..382" by 1.2" hole for the barrel. I use chopped joint screw for "gauge".
Got a drill with .380" shank too ( metric ).
Works for me .
West System 105/206 medium thick epoxy mix after a thin mix has settled .
I glue off the lathe b/c I blow off the excess epoxy when they surface and pop.

For all intents and purposes , .002" at the pilot is straight .
Please . if you face off with the center on the center of the tailstock between end to end centers ( TRUE BETWEEN CENTERS, not chucked up ), that butt will be straight and concentric .
Nobody has missed a ball because the joint screw's pilot is .005" off. Much less at .002" off ON THE CHUCK.
 
With your pins having a glue relief channel/alignment barrel,take a CLOSE look at it and maybe you find tiny burrs? With a smooth barrel,maybe try hitting it real good with a piece of 80 grit emery,or a sharp mill file. Maybe there is stuff there,and scuffing up those smooth barrels to help the epoxy bite might be helpful too. Tommy D.
 
JC said:
This has been a bit of a challenge for me. I use modified 3/8 10 with a smooth barrel. The hole is always straight as the pins always turn with less than .001 runout on the tip dry. I have drilled them with a three flute carbide bit, bored them, reamed them. Tried it all and it's all straight.

I have tried a tight fit, a thou or so of clearance, a deeper barrel hole, a deeper threaded end. The problem comes in when gluing the pin in. My pins have a glue relief slot. I have used 5 minute epoxy, 20 minute epoxy, west systems, max 1618. After I put the pin in with the glue I can chuck it up and it's usually off by maybe a couple of thou max. I can push it over with a tiny thumb pressure and get it turning within a thou every time. Baby sit it for an hour with it sitting in the lathe and it's still dead on. Take it out of the lathe and stand it on end and the next day when the glue is cured the damn thing might have three thou of runout at the end of an inch of pin sticking out. Now of course this doesn't make the cue crooked as the joint faces take care of that and you really can't even see it with your naked eye spinning but it's frustrating as of course I want it perfect if possible. I have checked a lot of pins on other cues and they really aren't as good or better but that's not the point.

Any tricks or tips?
Click to expand...
The glue is sucking into the grain pushing the pin around that's why it looks good dry. The cure is to set the pin into a phenolic insert that does not have grain and
 
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Cocoa said:
The glue is sucking into the grain pushing the pin around that's why it looks good dry. The cure is to set the pin into a phenolic insert that does not have grain and
Click to expand...

Could you seal the pin cavity with a wood sealer instead of using an insert?
 
whammo57 said:
just a comment............ never bottom out the pin in the hole........ I always back them off a little to be sure........... if you bottom it out... it will always cock to one side a little
Click to expand...
Good comment. I cut my anchor threads .050" deeper than my pin so it's "floating" in the hole. Learned that early on the hard way.
 
Last edited:
I have found the best way to check the pin is between centers. Checking the pin while the cue is sticking out of the chuck can be misleading
 
Not a cuemaker:

You mentioned when dry fit it runs true. How about get it to run true while dry, then remove the whole cue from the lathe, and any collets you used. Now put it back in the lathe and re indicate the pin. If it’s out, then your workholding setup does not repeat, or the cue is not straight, and/or not round.
 
Canadian cue said:
I have found the best way to check the pin is between centers. Checking the pin while the cue is sticking out of the chuck can be misleading
Click to expand...
i generally cut the hole, thread it and install the pin all without removing the cue from the chuck. I will run some completed ones between centers and see how they look. The runout would then be apparent at the end of the cue though right as the end of the pin in a live center will indicate pretty true regardless of how it's installed in the wood.
 
kling&allen said:
Misleading as it can under report run out caused by the chuck / collet itself?
Click to expand...
Just because the dial doesn't run out at the joint doesn't mean the back of the cue isn't running out, when I first started building cues I used to support the back of the cue with a collet in the rear of the spindle and chuck on just behinds the joint collar. It makes you think everything is running true, but the reality is that the chuck may not be holding the cue perfectly on axis and the rear support pulls the cue in line and because cues are made of wood they can bend. My method now is to leave the butt of the cue unsupported and after chucking up the front watch to see how much runout I have at the back. I will sometimes tighten, loosen and rotate the cue a dozen times before I get it right. When you hold the cue between centers there is no chuck bending the cue and you can see how true it runs. Facing shafts is even more critical because they are even easier to bend. When possible I do all my joint facing between centers, I even built mandrels that will allow me to face off flat faced joints between centers. The only caveat to this is how much pressure you put on the center, you cant crank the tail stock to tight.
 
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