How do you go about suing a cue builder? Just want to get my cue back.

Clusterbuster said:
The other day I responded to a similar post regarding a cue purchase. This same kind of complaint is, unfortunately, not uncommon on this site. Permit me to make basically the same point here as I did the other day. I’m a criminal defense lawyer of nearly forty years experience and have handled hundreds of theft and fraud cases. I’d like to address, from a lawyer’s perspective, the all too common issue of a seller not sending a purchased cue, not returning a deposit, keeping a cue that was sent in (as here), etc. I’m not as experienced on the civil side, but I have a clue and I’m not trying to advise anyone on a specific case; just making some general observations from forty years in the legal system.

While various legal approaches to the “where is my cue” disputes are possible they will usually fail as practical matter. Could criminal charges be pursued? Yes, but individual citizens don’t ultimately press criminal charges. Although many are under the impression that they can “press charges” or “take out a warrant” against someone who has victimized them, what the individual actually does is fill out a sworn affidavit containing the facts which they feel constitute a crime. A prosecutor then reviews it and decides whether to pursue the matter. The prosecutor has complete discretion on whether to pursue a charge or not. Most cue transaction-type issues as seen on this site constitute, a low level property offense, usually a misdemeanor. As a practical matter, most prosecutors are not going to undertake the prosecution of a case that to them, not to you, is a low-level, multi-jurisdiction property offense. They would either have to seek the extradition of an out-of-state defendant (seller, repairer, etc.) into the customer’s state or, if they were in the seller/repairer’s state, fly in the customer as a witness. In neither instance will they do it on a property offense involving only a few hundred dollars. It will look to the prosecutor like a contract dispute and he will most likely tell the aggrieved party to pursue civil remedies. Extraditions and flying in out-of-state witnesses on misdemeanors or low-level felonies are almost unheard of.

On the civil side, these type issues are, at their root, a contract dispute. An attorney will not get involved on a contingency basis so he can take a third or forty percent of a judgement in the hundreds or low thousands of dollars and the plaintiff is probably not going to want to pay an attorney three or four hundred dollars an hour on a straight fee basis. Bottom line, the plaintiff will end up having to represent himself and will soon be swimming in a procedural maze involving multiple jurisdictions. A lay person would be hard pressed to figure out how to appropriately get service on an out -of-state party, much less how to execute on an out-of-state judgment if they were fortunate enough to get one. Even if a plaintiff got a judgment, it would be virtually worthless unless he wanted to spend more money than the amount of the judgment. Are there ways to theoretically make this work? Yes. Are they worth the money, and maybe more importantly, the time to bring them to a successful conclusion. Most likely not.

Unless a cue dispute involves thousands of dollars or the seller or repair person is in the same state as the customer, there are unfortunately no practical ways to get relief through the court systems.
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Very informative. Thanks.
 
garczar said:
What post are you referring to? Saying police don't invest. murders sounds a little wacky to me. Glad i live in a city with a great PD. Tulsa has about 65-80 homicides/yr and TPD's arrest and clearance rate is over 90%. Not that many are random so it doesn't take long to find who did it.
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Post #13 has an accurate rundown of the real legal options from an attorney. Nationwide clearance rate for murder is close to 60%.

ucr.fbi.gov

Clearances

ucr.fbi.gov

My wife was once kidnapped and taken to an ATM to clean out our account (she wasn't hurt and the bank was FDIC insured so we didn't go to lose any money). The KC robbery homicide group was so understaffed they didn't even bother to pull the bank cameras to get an image of the guy, let alone things like find fingerprints. The notion that a police department will spend time looking for a missing pool cue is silly.
 
kling&allen said:
Post #13 has an accurate rundown of the real legal options from an attorney. Nationwide clearance rate for murder is close to 60%.

ucr.fbi.gov

Clearances

ucr.fbi.gov

My wife was once kidnapped and taken to an ATM to clean out our account (she wasn't hurt and the bank was FDIC insured so we didn't go to lose any money). The KC robbery homicide group was so understaffed they didn't even bother to pull the bank cameras to get an image of the guy, let alone things like find fingerprints. The notion that a police department will spend time looking for a missing pool cue is silly.
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He said nothing about homicides. I'm glad your wife is ok but no homicide took place. I'm sure there are understaffed PD's nationwide but to say PD's don't investigate murders is just not true imo.
 
garczar said:
Very informative. Thanks.
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That all sounds well and good but once a person receives a letter drafted from an attorney about a possible complaint. When they show that to their attorney and explain to them on a liability they can have in terms of legal costs it gets their attention pretty quick. And often never has to go beyond that point when the person will get the idea that things have just gotten real.

As well as the lawyer who wrote the comments gave a disclaimer "unless it's in the thousands of dollars". It is in the thousands of dollars, in fact I'm sure if you added it to all of the other people who have the same complaint with the same person it's in the many thousands of dollars.
No, a slip and fall lawyer is not taking this case. But having a lawyer draft a letter and waiting for a reaction is not a worthless effort. And it's not necessarily a bluff. Ever get a letter from the IRS I have. They get your attention you're on the phone calling within 5 minutes.
 
garczar said:
Really?? the guy's a fkng cuemaker not Charles Manson. I think going to his shop and politely asking for his property back would end this deal.
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He was talking about flying from NY to Florida- I just did that for the holidays- my flight back got cancelled as did hundreds of others that day- 2 more hotel nights at several hundred a night in NY for me or pay through the nose for a flight home that day- which I did with no rebate from Jet Blue for my new flight. flights are being cancelled by the hundreds every day.

He has tried for 3 years to get his cue back from this guy- so now you think a plane trip NY to Florida, hotels, cars, etc. etc. and NOW when he finally arrives at the guy's doorstep a polite conversation will make him whole and it will all be worth it? I don't.
 
mikemosconi said:
He was talking about flying from NY to Florida- I just did that for the holidays- my flight back got cancelled as did hundreds of others that day- 2 more hotel nights at several hundred a night in NY for me or pay through the nose for a flight home that day- which I did with no rebate from Jet Blue for my new flight. flights are being cancelled by the hundreds every day.

He has tried for 3 years to get his cue back from this guy- so now you think a plane trip NY to Florida, hotels, cars, etc. etc. and NOW when he finally arrives at the guy's doorstep a polite conversation will make him whole and it will all be worth it? I don't.
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Don't agree. At all. If Duc shows at his shop DS is not going to shoot/attack him. He'll get his stuff back. IMO its the only way he's ever going to see it again. If i was going the lawyer route i'd have done so WAAAAAY before 3yrs went by.
 
Clusterbuster said:
The other day I responded to a similar post regarding a cue purchase. This same kind of complaint is, unfortunately, not uncommon on this site. Permit me to make basically the same point here as I did the other day. I’m a criminal defense lawyer of nearly forty years experience and have handled hundreds of theft and fraud cases. I’d like to address, from a lawyer’s perspective, the all too common issue of a seller not sending a purchased cue, not returning a deposit, keeping a cue that was sent in (as here), etc. I’m not as experienced on the civil side, but I have a clue and I’m not trying to advise anyone on a specific case; just making some general observations from forty years in the legal system.

While various legal approaches to the “where is my cue” disputes are possible they will usually fail as practical matter. Could criminal charges be pursued? Yes, but individual citizens don’t ultimately press criminal charges. Although many are under the impression that they can “press charges” or “take out a warrant” against someone who has victimized them, what the individual actually does is fill out a sworn affidavit containing the facts which they feel constitute a crime. A prosecutor then reviews it and decides whether to pursue the matter. The prosecutor has complete discretion on whether to pursue a charge or not. Most cue transaction-type issues as seen on this site constitute, a low level property offense, usually a misdemeanor. As a practical matter, most prosecutors are not going to undertake the prosecution of a case that to them, not to you, is a low-level, multi-jurisdiction property offense. They would either have to seek the extradition of an out-of-state defendant (seller, repairer, etc.) into the customer’s state or, if they were in the seller/repairer’s state, fly in the customer as a witness. In neither instance will they do it on a property offense involving only a few hundred dollars. It will look to the prosecutor like a contract dispute and he will most likely tell the aggrieved party to pursue civil remedies. Extraditions and flying in out-of-state witnesses on misdemeanors or low-level felonies are almost unheard of.

On the civil side, these type issues are, at their root, a contract dispute. An attorney will not get involved on a contingency basis so he can take a third or forty percent of a judgement in the hundreds or low thousands of dollars and the plaintiff is probably not going to want to pay an attorney three or four hundred dollars an hour on a straight fee basis. Bottom line, the plaintiff will end up having to represent himself and will soon be swimming in a procedural maze involving multiple jurisdictions. A lay person would be hard pressed to figure out how to appropriately get service on an out -of-state party, much less how to execute on an out-of-state judgment if they were fortunate enough to get one. Even if a plaintiff got a judgment, it would be virtually worthless unless he wanted to spend more money than the amount of the judgment. Are there ways to theoretically make this work? Yes. Are they worth the money, and maybe more importantly, the time to bring them to a successful conclusion. Most likely not.

Unless a cue dispute involves thousands of dollars or the seller or repair person is in the same state as the customer, there are unfortunately no practical ways to get relief through the court systems.
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I recovered 2/3 of the money that scumbag Jeff Forney screwed me for on a 3k lathe without filing any paperwork at all. The local law enforcement in his zip code helped me even though he was in New York and I'm in Oregon.

Had I taken "Legal action" I would have spent more money and received no relief ever.

I appreciate your legal experience but like many lawyers that's all you know. Not unlike our entire semi useless court system. Sometimes you have to operate outside the box so to speak to get things done.
 
garczar said:
Don't agree. At all. If Duc shows at his shop DS is not going to shoot/attack him. He'll get his stuff back. IMO its the only way he's ever going to see it again. If i was going the lawyer route i'd have done so WAAAAAY before 3yrs went by.
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Well here is where we do agree- he probably will not be attacked at the cue maker's location, he probably should have contacted a lawyer 3 years ago if he wanted to go legal, he definitely waited too long to decide to actually DO something about the loss- 3 years- ridiculous!

I just think that to invest in planes, hotels, cars, etc. NOW is too late as well with no guarantees at all.
 
mikemosconi said:
Well here is where we do agree- he probably will not be attacked at the cue maker's location, he probably should have contacted a lawyer 3 years ago if he wanted to go legal, he definitely waited too long to decide to actually DO something about the loss- 3 years- ridiculous!

I just think that to invest in planes, hotels, cars, etc. NOW is too late as well with no guarantees at all.
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I hear you but that's what i'd do after this long. Makes me glad there are makers like Gilbert,Owen,Nitti,etc. that do what they say. This guy charges huge $ for a cue, has a eon-long waiting list and then treats customers like complete nits. What a douchebag. Surprised someone hasn't had a 'conversation' with this tool.
 
Cuemaster98 said:
Builder said it was his early conversion cue and he used thinner ca so that the pin can be easier to remove and/or replace if needed. I could of replace or fix the radial pin myself but doing so will de-value the cue. Who do you know that have sneeky Pete selling for 2-3k? The cue plays very solid and I really want it all to be original from the builder. thanks
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Here is the irony of the situation. There is nothing special about this cue other than who built it. In fact it was built with sub standard process' while he was learning how to build a cue.

But because this was built by Searing it's worth enough to fuss over. There are better cue's at Goodwill for $100.

The whole Searing thing rivals the 10 year wait for a SW cue in weirdness. There are so many cue builders as good or better than Searing who are also decent humans to choose from.

I would wager money that if we sawed a dozen of his cues randomly end to end we would find many surprises. No integrity extends to all aspects of a person's life.

Pool players seem to have no common sense.

I wouldn't own one of his cues new or used just on principal.

Oh and to the OP. If you know how to install a pin the cue would not be devalued by doing so. How in the world would any one ever know?
 
JC said:
Here is the irony of the situation. There is nothing special about this cue other than who built it. In fact it was built with sub standard process' while he was learning how to build a cue.

But because this was built by Searing it's worth enough to fuss over. There are better cue's at Goodwill for $100.

The whole Searing thing rivals the 10 year wait for a SW cue in weirdness. There are so many cue builders as good or better than Searing who are also decent humans to choose from.

I would wager money that if we sawed a dozen of his cues randomly end to end we would find many surprises. No integrity extends to all aspects of a person's life.

Pool players seem to have no common sense.

I wouldn't own one of his cues new or used just on principal.

Oh and to the OP. If you know how to install a pin the cue would not be devalued by doing so. How in the world would any one ever know?
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My list of the custom cues is here below my post. I love every one of these cues. Honestly, I cannot say that any one is better than the other - they are all made very, very well and could play great for a lifetime with proper care. All the fine people that I bought these cues from were great to deal with- many here on AZ. All of my repair work on these has been done by Troy Downey at Mueller, Scott at Proficient, Cues Directly, Collier Billiards, Ted Harris - like to mention Mike Webb too- who contributes a lot here on AZ -NEVER had one issue at all - tips, ferrules, wraps, joints, whatever!

Point is that there are great folks in this business - A guy who charges the highest prices for his work is not always the best guy to have business dealings. Cue makers are responsible for creating what is a wonderful hobby for many of us- for some- a lifetime hobby- there are many good folks in this business too!
 
JC said:
Here is the irony of the situation. There is nothing special about this cue other than who built it. In fact it was built with sub standard process' while he was learning how to build a cue.

But because this was built by Searing it's worth enough to fuss over. There are better cue's at Goodwill for $100.

The whole Searing thing rivals the 10 year wait for a SW cue in weirdness. There are so many cue builders as good or better than Searing who are also decent humans to choose from.

I would wager money that if we sawed a dozen of his cues randomly end to end we would find many surprises. No integrity extends to all aspects of a person's life.

Pool players seem to have no common sense.

I wouldn't own one of his cues new or used just on principal.

Oh and to the OP. If you know how to install a pin the cue would not be devalued by doing so. How in the world would any one ever know?
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I don't understand your post. The man wants his cue back. The value means nothing. Why the meaness ?
 
GoldCrown said:
Send the person an inflated value bill for how much you think it’s worth with a 5 day dead line to pay or return the cue. Go right to court after that. Also contact state attorney to start a file … Maybe there’s a lot of people in the same position. Regardless do everything legal to get your property back
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Send it certified , return receipt requested. He will think he's won something.

You should out this POS as well
 
middleofnowhere said:
I don't understand your post. The man wants his cue back. The value means nothing. Why the meaness ?
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What's not to understand? We have a scumbag being enabled by the pool world's acceptance of his behavior for what? To own one of his holy grail cues? Woopie doo and woopie ding! This guy is lucky everyone doesn't think straight like I do or he would be making his cues for no one.

I have read people saying he's just the nicest guy in person. I say bullshit to that nonsense. He's just apparently more polite in person because he is not confrontational but his actions over and over again speak volumes. Where I come from these characters are known as "con men". But not in the pool world he's just eccentric. Give me a personal break.

I think it was Billy Crystal who said a person who is nice to me and not to the waiter is not a nice person.
 
If it's the same state probably small claims. Not sure how you do it out of state but you shouldn't need a lawyer.

Did you send it USPS or UPS?
 
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