Playing up against better players-advice please

BuffaloSlim said:
Maybe the money and time being spent on the Saturday and Sunday tourneys would be better spent with an instructor for a little while .. they may be able to quickly pick up on some things and give you some advice/drills on how to work on those areas .. then when your satisfied with the outcome go back to playing those tourneys again
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I've played and attained a pretty good game over the past 4 decades.
Never did any drills, except to practice banking.
I come from the SVB scheme of practicing when alone.
Break and try to run out.
 
pw98 said:
All the pressure is on the better player until the worse player gets at the finish line then the pressure is on them.
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If a better player is giving big weight it's because he's been there and done that. They are pushing themselves.

I've given players even to me the 7 out to get action. Its not as much in higher skill levels because they run the last 3 balls over 90 to 95% anyway.
 
Woodshaft said:
Learning to win is what it's all about.
The folks I teach seem happy with the results.
Nobody wants a teaching method that is difficult or frustrating or humiliating.
I show people how to play the game more efficiently. It's more about playing the percentages than just the mechanics.
And they learn and grow together as peers, helping each other along the way.
Lots of happy, much improved players after a few weeks of basic knowledge and peer practices.
Most clients I teach are average bar leaguers. I have helped up to fargo 650ish folks also. I myself play a little north of that.
I enjoy the game and helping others.:)
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Yes the game is more than pedantics but what actually happens is most of the field and I'm talking about majors, is in over their technical ability and the guys with headroom simply pick and choose their way around them.
 
Woodshaft said:
I find that the best people to practice with are the ones who play you about even.
That way you push each other to be better because, nobody wants to lose to a guy they can beat!
Play for a little something, and you'll both probably get better. You want a guy to "push" you to win, not demolish you.
Also, play in as many tournaments as you can, to work on nerves and stamina.
As far as the "you need to lose to better players to get better", it's bs.
In this day and age, youtube will teach you waaaayyyyyy more useful stuff than will losing your lunch money to better players.
Watch the pros play 10-ball. It is the most thorough skilled, common game imo. Lots of strategy.
9-ball is a waste of time to play or watch. Even 8-ball is better, especially at the amateur level.
And the days of "you need to pay your dues" are long over. Guys that feed you that line are just after your cash, not trying to teach you.
I mentor lots of players in my region, and I try to pair similarly skilled players to practice with each other.
You can play the better guys if you want but, to steadily improve, I find playing against peers works better. You push each other.
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In ideal circumstances what you say is true. Get a supportive peer group and push each other to improve together reinforcing fresh concepts for one another. However, losing--especially losing money--is a powerful catalyst for learning. It's not that the useful info isn't on youtube, it's that most people won't actually apply it until they are punished for not doing so. You don't necessarily need to lose to way better players, but you need to lose. You still pay your dues. Your way is nice and should be tried if an option, but imo, the vast majority of people learn the hard way.

Kinda reminds me of poker legend Doyle Brunson getting asked by his son to teach him poker. He told him, "I can't teach you poker. I wrote a pretty good book on it so you can read that but it won't help either. You gotta get out there and lose for a bit before you actually start applying what's in there". Paraphrase but along those lines. In my own poker development I went through something similar. I 'knew' what to do and just didn't....till I got punished for bad play and lost $. Then I did it. Same goes for pool for a lot of people...they might get the right concepts presented to them, but it takes some loss and pain to get them to actually apply them in games or devote hours of practice to developing weak parts of their games.
 
Ok, it reads as if these are barbox 8-ball tournaments and leagues, And I assume the OP is an APA 3 or 4 or equivalent. If that’s the context, how do the answers change if at all?
 
TeddyKGB said:
I'm doing that. I live across the street from a great room with 7 and 9 ft diamonds.

I practitce on Mondays for 3-4 hours, and usually get another 3-4 hour session in on Thursday or Friday. I practice mostly on 9 ft tables

I play league Weds and Thurs nights, 8 ball tourney on Friday night, 9 ball tourney during the day on Saturday, and 8 ball tourney Saturday night whenever I can manage.

Im definitely improving, but sometimes I question whether I should be practicing vs getting my ass kicked in the tournaments against superior players for the time being.
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When you say "practice" what do you do exactly? Just play games alone? Work with an instructor or a guy that is coaching you? Follow some specific drills like the progressive drills? Play specific position scenarios?

Many people say "practice", but they are basically just warming up and not really trying to learn new things or improve on what they do improperly.

Playing as often as you do, if done properly with good mechanics, you should be able to max out most league ratings soon enough. And keep in mind if you are playing against the top players in the area, everyone will be losing to them not just you. It's a normal thing. Some players quit, some keep trying. When I play on the challenge tables hanging out with friends at their league nights, I tend to win most of the time, and I see who plays once and goes away till I am out and who keeps trying to kick me off the table LOL
 
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My practice sessions usually consist of me playing 9 ball on a 9' table on Mondays and 7' table later in the week for 3-4 hours each session., either by myself or with a friend who is pretty close to my level, slightly below.

If i miss a ball or leave myself bad i set the shot up and do it again a few times.

I usually start the session warming up with full length table shots for about 10 minutes or so just getting my stroke solid.
 
SBC said:
If a better player is giving big weight it's because he's been there and done that. They are pushing themselves.

I've given players even to me the 7 out to get action. Its not as much in higher skill levels because they run the last 3 balls over 90 to 95% anyway.
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I'm talking about playing even.
 
Watching players who really know the game is great, watching instructional material is great ,practicing and doing drills is great. Playing someone who is better than you, you may think only a ball or two but in reality it is probably 3 or 4 is a ridiculous waste of time money and will actually make you a worse player in the long run. Because you are not learning positive outcomes , you are only learning how to make them try harder to win, which means you will be ducking waaaaay too much. There is no magic pill, put the work in , figure out the style of play most favorable to you and try to work your way up the pecking order. {When you think you are truly ready} not because last week you played Fred and Tommy is next on the list so you play him and lose to both. It has nothing to do with heart, if it did ,I know 10 people who would have been world champions. If you don't have the skill, heart might overcome a ball but its silly to think it is a magic weapon.
 
book collector said:
.... and will actually make you a worse player in the long run. Because you are not learning positive outcomes , you are only learning how to make them try harder to win, which means you will be ducking waaaaay too much.....
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Nailed it... More value in watching the top action then paying their rent.

Measuring one's self in action is totally different animal. If you want to expose yourself to talent and pressure then play in tournaments. You'll only lose a small fixed amount (entry) and you have the chance to play the strongest at the cheapest possible cost.
 
jaywheel said:
Walls of texts for the 5 pages of this thread when 6 words would suffice: Harriman's Cue Sports Prep Academy
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Calling a 5 word phrase 6 words is especially spot on for the advice given. But if the academy is true to Harriman's code of conduct, graduates would never play anyone they weren't a dead nuts lock winner against anyway so might as well save the tuition fee and just duck any real competition like any true graduate would.
 
SBC said:
I probably need 7 out...I barely played for 2 years. Mourning the loss of Salt City Billiards and what was left of pool in this god forsaken town.

Now that I've just about emptied the room...it's really hitting home.
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Be careful getting your hopes up that you'll get that.
Last guy who offered me the 7 on here went incognito when I accepted.
 
jaywheel said:
English is not my first language, but isn't the " 's " considered a word by itself?
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And I thought you were just being extra hilarious.
The 's' can be considered a word if a contraction like "it's" meaning "it is", but I would still count it as one. In this case tho, the "s" isn't a contraction but a possessive, as in it belongs to him, so just the one word for sure.
Still preferred it when I thought it was a deliberate miscount :p
 
softshot said:
there was a thread on here long ago I cant find it.. but it was suggested that you record your next 100 misses as in ..... I left myself a little steep and had a hard cut near the rail...
he played safe and I had to attempt a two rail kick and I fouled.... ect...

and you do this 100 times then you read that book looking for themes and that's what you need to focus on at practice..

and if you don't practice... you will get squashed by everyone who does.. or did..

for most quality pool players there is a period of 5+YEARS where they were at a table cue in hand every day... mostly alone, figuring it out

and if you haven't done that, that's why you are losing to the quality players..

no one in the history of the game was instantly great.. it takes work but it is achievable

every single pool player is as good as they were willing to get..
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You said a mouthful there! (Saying a keyboard full just doesn't sound the same.) After I was winning most of the time I put in five to six thousand hours in two to three years working on cue ball control. Joe Villalpando's first two DVD's could probably knock 75% or more off of that time, they are that good!

My opinion, pocketing the ball is usually the easy part of the shot. The hard part is getting the cue ball where you want it. If you shoot for spot shape and you are a little bit off you are usually still OK, if you play for area shape and you are a little off you are usually screwed. Learning spot shape was tough, very tough. It almost gave me a license to steal for close to ten years though.

Talking directly to the OP now, if you get to play a monster a couple times a month that is plenty. Play people a step or two better than you about equal parts with playing people not quite your speed. All that losing all of the time can teach you is how to be a good loser. You will get enough practice losing without going out of your way to lose.

We have more youtube pool and snooker than we can ever watch. Watch instructional video you are interested in but also watch pro matches. Even Shane makes mistakes sometimes. Learn how to use the video controls to back up and forward to get to what you want to see. Today's players, or those of a few years ago to be more accurate, were too stuck on draw. They would draw three or four rails in traffic when one rail and little or no traffic was available. They were so used to draw that they were always choosing a draw shot without considering other options.

Along with spot shape, moving the cue ball as little as possible is super strong. The bad news, the recent MatchRoom event showed that the top players have cleaned up their games a lot. Steel hones steel and they have had to kick their games up a level or two in the last few years. The things that would have let you make a significant jump, now you are going to have to master to just stay even. Reminds me, like it or not, I don't, the jump cue is here to stay in most gambling and local events. Get one and learn to use it.

About all I have at the moment. Hopefully you at least take away don't play people you can't beat all the time. All it takes to be a gracious winner is practice. That is all it takes to be a good loser too. I prefer to practice being a good winner. At the least your winnings should pay for your losses and lessons or very close to it.

The old you have to gamble with better players to learn idea was put forward by gamblers, a way to get into people's pockets, a lot like calling anybody who won't get in a bad game a nit. When they won't take a bad game they are smart handicappers. When you won't take a bad game, you are a nit! Reminds me of a final thought. If you have played and lost to a better player a few times don't be bashful about asking for a spot. The worst that can happen is you can be told no.

Hu
 
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