Yapp banned from WPA tournament?

[buckshotshoey]

Here is the link to the podcast all. I'm watching it from the beginning, and about half way though. The sport will basically be torn apart if things continue as-is for the next year.

I can see WPA's side. Listening to the president, MR has basically bullied their way in and want to have everything their way. The WPA "is" the authority, and is not going to allow "any" private company (MR, Predator, Kevin IPT, etc) to control the pool system, EVEN if that private company (MR) is the best thing since sliced bread. I completely understand that. We've had so many fly by night promoters that steal the year end purse, both from a weekly tournament level, to a professional tour level.

What's going to happen, IMO is MR will take over, WPA may crumble. Then when/if MR says bye bye, (like just about every other promoter has in the past 50 years), there will be no organization left in pool.

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is up to each person to decide. But it all has to be taken as a whole. Yes, MR is doing great things for the sport, but they could be breaking the sport's core structure as well. That's what we are fundamentally discussing. Is the core structure of WPA and all its member federations wanted/needed?

Also all of us (me included) that are frequently heard saying "what has the WPA done for me lately", are not seeing the whole picture.

IMO

The WPA will cave just like the PGA did.

 

[justnum]

Ishaun was clear to argue the structure of rules and governance the WPA follows.

The only documented case of the IOC removing international federation recognition is for boxing. The June 2, 2023 report summarizes the series of events leading the the removal of IOC recognition to IBA, International Boxing Association.

Federations have to make plans for livelihood of the sport. However sometimes those federations suffer problems.

Do any of the recent WPA actions put their IOC recognition at risk for being in non-compliance with the larger governing structure?

A break from previous traditions is worth noting, those are actions performed by the WPA.
In the past the WPA only banned individuals, now it is targeting groups.

Was the procedure to inform the players being banned in accordance with all regulations as determined in arbitration?

Players have rules to follow, federations also have rules to follow. When federations fail to uphold standards they are also subject to consequences.

 

[FeelDaShot]

The WPA has plans to ban players from competing in non-sectioned events. We all know that "non-sanctioned events" is specifically referring to Matchroom events. However, what about all of the smaller local and regional tournaments throughout the world that don't involve Matchroom? Those are also unsanctioned and have never been a problem for the WPA.

 

[JAM]

This just in on Window's Open.

 

[Guy Manges]

Send Help... Guy

 

[skogstokig]

Sheesh, I didn't realize there were 100s of different pool federations across the globe. What do they do exactly? Are they providing any financial support for players? Which federation overseas the USA?

the equivalent in the US is the BCA

i suppose what these national organizations do differs but in my country they organize an amateur tour from tier 1-3, an elite tour and a senior tour. the structure itself is very good. there's no substantial financial support for the top players but for the amateurs and the up and coming players the infrastructure is undoubtedly beneficial. germany and poland are probably the best examples

 

[Cameron Smith]

I am happy the WPA is speaking more openly.

But the representatives REALLY need to work on their elevator pitch ahead of time. They need to be able to answer questions succinctly and clearly about their mission and purpose without using the words “governing” or “body”.

They also need to have a bullet point list of tangible accomplishments ready to offer. Just saying “we’ve done a lot” and then point to the accomplishments of local federations isn’t going to convince people who aren’t on their side.

From the interviews, they seem like well meaning and passionate people. But there is a lack of organization that is coming across.

I think it’s clear that Matchroom is trying to exert more control because there has been a historical lack of control and vision at the pro level. I can at least see their goal is create more cohesion and clarity around pro 9 ball by standardizing rules, equipment and criteria for being part of the braking system.

Irrespective of whatever value WPA and local associations may bring at the pro level, I don’t think it would be advisable for them to play a game of chicken with Matchroom. They are basically saying “Dont play in all these $300,000+ added events, stay the course and trust in our 172 year plan to grow pool to become a sightly less niche sport.”

 

[iusedtoberich]

the equivalent in the US is the BCA

i suppose what these national organizations do differs but in my country they organize an amateur tour from tier 1-3, an elite tour and a senior tour. the structure itself is very good. there's no substantial financial support for the top players but for the amateurs and the up and coming players the infrastructure is undoubtedly beneficial. germany and poland are probably the best examples

That's one thing that Ishaun was getting at when Molinia Mike kept asking "what does the WPA do". One of the points he made was something like (me paraphrasing) you are in the USA, so you don't see it as much as the rest of the world.

I can't remember the last time the BCA did anything, other than Shaw and Schmidt's straight pool runs. Before that, it must have been 20 years?

 

[MattPoland]

 

[iusedtoberich]

Emily’s press release is all insults. It stinks frankly. If it cut out 2/3rds it would have been a lot better. Also I can’t stand she’s designating everything not MR as “amateur”. That’s no mistake of word choice on her part.

Ishaun was completely professional on the podcast.

 

[MattPoland]

That's one thing that Ishaun was getting at when Molinia Mike kept asking "what does the WPA do". One of the points he made was something like (me paraphrasing) you are in the USA, so you don't see it as much as the rest of the world.

I can't remember the last time the BCA did anything, other than Shaw and Schmidt's straight pool runs. Before that, it must have been 20 years?

I’d blame the US Government for the BCAs lack of relevance. To give WPA credit. It’s comprised of regional continental members. Those are comprised of national members. There’s a reason the Formosa Cup was sanctioned and attached to the structure of CTBS > ACBS > WPA > WCBS > GAISF > IOC and that’s because Taiwan has government programs authorizing funding to events inside that structure. The Formosa Cup had two options: operate independently and unsanctioned without that money, or sanction, get the extra money and subject itself to ACBS authority. Many countries worldwide have similar programs that direct government funds to IOC-affiliated sports for use in supporting events, junior programs, financial support of athletes participating in sanctioned events, and provide financial rewards to attaining medals in international competition in those events. The US tends not to have official government programs for supporting IOC-affiliated sports like that. So attaching your events to the BCA (and on up) doesn’t have the same outcome. But in other countries that support is absolutely what produces a Wiktor Zielinski.

 

[justnum]

I’d blame the US Government for the BCAs lack of relevance. To give WPA credit. It’s comprised of regional continental members. Those are comprised of national members. There’s a reason the Formosa Cup was sanctioned and attached to the structure of CTBS > ACBS > WPA > WCBS > GAISF > IOC and that’s because Taiwan has government programs authorizing funding to events inside that structure.

What would you talk about at the general assembly for the WPA member federations?

Set an agenda your posts are full of details, but lack intention or purpose.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I’d blame the US Government for the BCAs lack of relevance. ...

I think the US federal government is without guilt in this matter unless you want to raise the discussion to a much higher social/cultural level.

The USOC is not part of the US Government. From Wikipedia:

Unlike most other nations, the United States government does not have a Ministry of Sports and does not fund its Olympic Committee. This is in part due to the taboo of mixing sports and politics in the U.S. The USOPC was reorganized by the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, originally enacted in 1978. It is a federally chartered nonprofit corporation and does not receive federal financial support (other than for select Paralympic military programs). Pursuant to the Act, the USOPC has the exclusive right to use and authorize the use of Olympic-related marks, images and terminology in the United States. The USOPC licenses that right to sponsors as a means of generating revenue in support of its mission.[3][4]​

The USA does not see any value in the centrally funded promotion of pastime activities, including sports.

For a while the BCA was seeking recognition by the USOC as the governing body of cue sports in the US. That is why the BCA headquarters moved from Iowa to Colorado Springs where the USOC is. It's why the BCA hired an Executive Director (Steve Ducoff) who had gotten USOC recognition for a sport (target shooting?). Sadly, when the BCA Board changed and it became clear that major changes to the BCA bylaws would be required for the BCA to look like a governing body to the USOC, the whole effort was dropped. The BCA offices have since moved out of Colorado Springs.

 

[justnum]

I think the US federal government is without guilt in this matter unless you want to raise the discussion to a much higher social/cultural level.

The USOC is not part of the US Government. From Wikipedia:

Unlike most other nations, the United States government does not have a Ministry of Sports and does not fund its Olympic Committee. This is in part due to the taboo of mixing sports and politics in the U.S. The USOPC was reorganized by the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, originally enacted in 1978. It is a federally chartered nonprofit corporation and does not receive federal financial support (other than for select Paralympic military programs). Pursuant to the Act, the USOPC has the exclusive right to use and authorize the use of Olympic-related marks, images and terminology in the United States. The USOPC licenses that right to sponsors as a means of generating revenue in support of its mission.[3][4]​

The USA does not see any value in the centrally funded promotion of pastime activities, including sports.

For a while the BCA was seeking recognition by the USOC as the governing body of cue sports in the US. That is why the BCA headquarters moved from Iowa to Colorado Springs where the USOC is. It's why the BCA hired an Executive Director (Steve Ducoff) who had gotten USOC recognition for a sport (target shooting?). Sadly, when the BCA Board changed and it became clear that major changes to the BCA bylaws would be required for the BCA to look like a governing body to the USOC, the whole effort was dropped. The BCA offices have since moved out of Colorado Springs.

Does this mean if a sports organization wanted to start that effort to be the USOC body for billiards it is an open position?

Suppose a new billiard group wanted to create a federation for USOC? It sounds like anyone with the right funding and paperwork can play that role.

 

[MattPoland]

I think the US federal government is without guilt in this matter unless you want to raise the discussion to a much higher social/cultural level.

The USOC is not part of the US Government. From Wikipedia:

Unlike most other nations, the United States government does not have a Ministry of Sports and does not fund its Olympic Committee. This is in part due to the taboo of mixing sports and politics in the U.S. The USOPC was reorganized by the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, originally enacted in 1978. It is a federally chartered nonprofit corporation and does not receive federal financial support (other than for select Paralympic military programs). Pursuant to the Act, the USOPC has the exclusive right to use and authorize the use of Olympic-related marks, images and terminology in the United States. The USOPC licenses that right to sponsors as a means of generating revenue in support of its mission.[3][4]​

The USA does not see any value in the centrally funded promotion of pastime activities, including sports.

For a while the BCA was seeking recognition by the USOC as the governing body of cue sports in the US. That is why the BCA headquarters moved from Iowa to Colorado Springs where the USOC is. It's why the BCA hired an Executive Director (Steve Ducoff) who had gotten USOC recognition for a sport (target shooting?). Sadly, when the BCA Board changed and it became clear that major changes to the BCA bylaws would be required for the BCA to look like a governing body to the USOC, the whole effort was dropped. The BCA offices have since moved out of Colorado Springs.

Gotcha. I do think that higher social/cultural level is central to why some would feel like BCA does nothing for the US. But per your statements, even if hopeless (like WCBS getting pool into the Olympics) it does sound like the BCA should still be relentless in trying to get USOC recognition and money. The sad thing is that SVB, Mosconi Cup, and WNT are the most marketable aspects of that pursuit.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Emily’s press release is all insults. It stinks frankly. If it cut out 2/3rds it would have been a lot better. Also I can’t stand she’s designating everything not MR as “amateur”. That’s no mistake of word choice on her part.

Ishaun was completely professional on the podcast.

Well, she's making a strong response to what she feels was an attack, I guess. For those who did not see the release, here it is. All of the typos are mine. This seems to be the only text version online.

nineball.
Matchroom Multi Sport Limited …
info@matchroom.com
1 September 2023

Dear Players,

Whilst we are disappointed that we find ourselves compelled to write this letter today, we are certainly not surprised. The success of the World Nineball Tour and the establishment of the World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation were driven by a single purpose: to create Life-changing opportunities for each and every one of you. However, the recent actions of the World Pool Association, which amount to nothing short of bullying tactics, has forced us to express our deep disappointment.

It is indeed a sad day for our sport when the very organisation entrusted with developing and championing opportunities for you is very clearly doing the opposite. The actions taken by the WPA and certain affiliated amateur members, both historically and in the publicly proposed course of action for the future as expressed by the WPA president, Ishaun Singh, on the 'Doggin It' podcast, have made it abundantly clear that your best interests are not their top priority or even a priority at all.

You should not face sanctions for participating in ANY event and certainly those that (i) are not affiliated with the WPA or a local federation and (ii) are part of a completely independent professional tour. Indeed, no player was or has subsequently been suspended for playing in the European Open Pool Championship or the US Open Pool Championship. Therefore, the public threat by the WPA regarding our future events, and the ACBS in respect of the upcoming Asian Open Pool Championship, further demonstrates the extraordinary intentions and careless decisions from those parties who should promote and grow the sport but are evidently doing the exact opposite.

However, this letter is not about rehashing the issues and challenges you are all aware of. Instead, it is about reaffirming our unwavering support for you, the heart and soul of our sport. You are the reason we are dedicated to what we do. The WNT would not exist without your remarkable talent and dedication, and we reiterate to you that the WNT is open to everyone. You are always welcome at our events and you remain free to play in any event you choose to enter.

We will continue to expand the WNT taking on new events in new territories and progressively increasing prize money for you each year. We will persist in doing whatever it takes to elevate this sport and, in turn, elevate you, and you need only look at our reputation for this across our other sports. We want you to be part of this incredible journey with us, and no one can hinder your participation if that is your choice.

That said, we invite you to join us at our next event in the incredible Hanoi City for the Asian Open Pool Championship, and event with 40 nationalities represented, global broadcast coverage and the seal of approval from the Department of Culture and Sport for Hanoi City. We urge you to not let small-minded organisations deprive you of life changing opportunities that we are working tirelessly to provide. We have the team, the production, the broadcast, the necessary funding and most importantly, the desire to take this Tour to the next level. We just need you to make it happen.

My best,
/ss/
Emily Frazer

Managing Director -- Multi Sport

 

[Bob Jewett]

... it does sound like the BCA should still be relentless in trying to get USOC recognition and money. ...

It seems like it should be a slam-dunk since the hard part -- getting the IOC to recognize cue sports through the WCBS -- has already been done. Unfortunately, the US is still suffering from the monopoly that Brunswick had on the organization of cue sports, which was passed down to a manufacturers' organization. The fact that the BCA has no player members is part of that. It used to be --starting about 1982 and until the BCA was forced to sell its leagues -- that you could join the BCA as player. I think that some in the BCA figure that it has no direct responsibility to players -- they are "merely" customers. The BCA is fundamentally not a sports organization.

 

[MattPoland]

It seems like it should be a slam-dunk since the hard part -- getting the IOC to recognize cue sports through the WCBS -- has already been done. Unfortunately, the US is still suffering from the monopoly that Brunswick had on the organization of cue sports, which was passed down to a manufacturers' organization. The fact that the BCA has no player members is part of that. It used to be --starting about 1982 and until the BCA was forced to sell its leagues -- that you could join the BCA as player. I think that some in the BCA figure that it has no direct responsibility to players -- they are "merely" customers. The BCA is fundamentally not a sports organization.

I have SO MUCH history to learn. I’ve heard over and over how much it was a mistake for the BCA to sell the league and you just said they were forced to which is a very different narrative. Are you aware of any opportunities for me to learn more about all of this? I’d love to be better prepared to influence things from a position or reason and understanding.

 

[justnum]

If not the BCA why hasn't the APA or BCAPL become interested in stepping up for WPA federation status?

Foreign investors can control billiards in America as a sanctioned WPA federation.
The benefits of controlling an American federation is for foreign investors to explore.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Are you aware of any opportunities for me to learn more about all of this? ...

Go to tournaments and trade shows and gossip with people. I suppose some is available in magazines. NBN is online in the Goldmine. I have a complete, bound set of Billiards Digest I would be willing to sell. 1978 to current issue.