Arrested for Ivory sale

iusedtoberich said:
I think we are all screwed. Almost every plain jane cue until about the 90's came with ivory ferrules. And almost every custom cue until at least 2010 or so had ivory inlays. No one in "authority" will know the difference between those and new cues made after the ban. And all of us normal players will never in a million years have documentation to prove those cues were before the ban. I don't have a single receipt for any cue I ever bought, and all cash of course, except some recent cues I bought from Predator's site.
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Ivory ferrules have always been a option and expensive customs typically had them but not every plain Jane cue.
I had most of my cues signed and dated that also coincides with the bills of sale confirming my date of purchase.

Every cue I own has its own file with communications, documentation, photos and any design illustration I provided.
I started researching and following ivory regulations long before any ban was ever debated in the California legislature.
 
Cornerman said:
Cues with legal pre-ban ivory have been legal to build and sell within the US up until 2016. And to be more accurate, they’re still legal to sell. Cues with ivory have been very visible and prevalent for much of your pool playing life. In other words, ivory was not phased out unless you started playing pool just in the past few years. By the wording, old ivory can still be used in cues and sold across state line. The number the wording has for de minimus amount is a whopping 50% (value or volume) !

I believe this is the current status. Ken K. unfortunately lives in one of the four states in the US that prohibits the sale of ivory.

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Cues are still legal to build using ivory before 1978……..the cue maker just needs to reside in a state that does not
prohibit ivory sales and if the buyer lives in a state that does, the buyer must travel to the cue maker to transact the
purchase. The buyer cannot buy, or even technically speaking, order the cue while physically within the boundaries
of any state prohibiting ivory sales. The cue maker can build and sell ivory pool cues as long as he resides in a state
that doesn’t restrict ivory sales which is still the majority of our nation. A lot of cue makers just stopped using ivory.
 
Cornerman said:
Per the current laws:

Only 4 USA states ban the sale of ivory. New York and California are two of them. Maryland is not.

Pre-ban ivory can still be in cues and be sold for cues built prior to the further 2016 restriction of ivory use.

A cue for interstate sale has a bunch of little regulatory exceptions in addition to the type of ivory, the most major that the ivory cannot be 50% of the value or the volume of the cue.

At least that’s how I read the 2016 ivory restriction.
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Actually 13 states and Washington, D.C. have enacted laws regulating the parts and products sourced from endangered species and elephants are but only one of them. Elephant ivory is the most controversial for a very long time but the list of endangered species is growing. Learn your local laws. Contact your local state Fish & Wildlife Agency. Knowledge protects you whereas ignorance and misinformation can eventually land you in legal trouble.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Cues are still legal to build using ivory before 1978……..the cue maker just needs to reside in a state that does not
prohibit ivory sales and if the buyer lives in a state that does, the buyer must travel to the cue maker to transact the
purchase. The buyer cannot buy, or even technically speaking, order the cue while physically within the boundaries
of any state prohibiting ivory sales. The cue maker can build and sell ivory pool cues as long as he resides in a state
that doesn’t restrict ivory sales which is still the majority of our nation. A lot of cue makers just stopped using ivory.
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Thanks for the clarification. I read the interstate sale restriction of 2016. Intrastate (within state) is still allowed for manufacture and sale of cues with ivory.

I am surprised that after 8 years, the Feds haven’t come to cue shows where surely there cues built after 2016 with ivory that crossed state lines with intent to sell.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Cues are still legal to build using ivory before 1978……..the cue maker just needs to reside in a state that does not
prohibit ivory sales and if the buyer lives in a state that does, the buyer must travel to the cue maker to transact the
purchase. The buyer cannot buy, or even technically speaking, order the cue while physically within the boundaries
of any state prohibiting ivory sales. The cue maker can build and sell ivory pool cues as long as he resides in a state
that doesn’t restrict ivory sales which is still the majority of our nation. A lot of cue makers just stopped using ivory.
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Thank you for elaborating on this. That's why I never had any problem transacting business in Nevada. I actually carried cues with me a couple of times on visits to Nevada to ship them out from there. Never had a hassle of any kind. No inspections, nothing. Shipping out of California can be a nightmare.
 
Cornerman said:
Thanks for the clarification. I read the interstate sale restriction of 2016. Intrastate (within state) is still allowed for manufacture and sale of cues with ivory.

I am surprised that after 8 years, the Feds haven’t come to cue shows where surely there cues built after 2016 with ivory that crossed state lines with intent to sell.
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Does that include California Freddie? I'm not so sure. Everyone is really careful here when selling cues containing ivory these days, in state or out of state. I won't ship from here via any carrier!
 
jay helfert said:
Does that include California Freddie? I'm not so sure. Everyone is really careful here when selling cues containing ivory these days, in state or out of state. I won't ship from here via any carrier!
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California basically everything is no good as far an ivory goes. Can't even think about ivory.
 
Maybe it’s dumb luck but anytime I’ve shipped a cue with ivory I’ve used FedEx.

The guy at the desk doesn’t care and the cues have always made a safe round trip. Same traveling and checking a cue on SWA or AA. They don’t care about ivory.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Maybe it’s dumb luck but anytime I’ve shipped a cue with ivory I’ve used FedEx.

The guy at the desk doesn’t care and the cues have always made a safe round trip. Same traveling and checking a cue on SWA or AA. They don’t care about ivory.

Lou Figueroa
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Movement of ivory without intent to sell is still explicitly allowed.
 
Chip Roberson said:
Hmm-wonder if the only ivory in the cue is the ferrule, would they take the whole cue or just the shaft? Have a friend
that wants to know.
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It is up to the agent but generally the entire cue is seized since any other white material inlays, if any, might be ivory as well. Just do not travel with cues containing “any” ivory internationally without a CITES Certificate for every cue that has any ivory. In any event, domestic travel within the United States boundaries is legally permissible. Possession is not a crime so let’s be sure everyone understands owning a cue with ivory is legal. But making a new cue, or modifying any cue using ivory might be illegal dependent on which states the cue maker and cue owner resides. Cues with ivory are becoming more rare year by year but if you already own any cues, treat them with care since ivory is becoming special.
 
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Bavafongoul said:
It is up to the agent but generally the entire cue is seized since any other white material inlays, if any, might be ivory as well. Just do not travel with cues containing “any” ivory internationally without a CUTES Certificate for every cue that has any ivory. In any event, domestic travel within the United States boundaries is legally permissible. Possession is not
a crime so let’s be sure everyone understands owning a cue with ivory is legal. But making a new cue, or modifying any cue using ivory might be illegal dependent on which states the cue maker and cue owner resides. Cues with ivory are
becoming more rare year by year but if you already own any cues, treat them with care since ivory is becoming special.
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Been traveling internationally with a cue with ivory in it for years.

Lou Figueroa
no one cares
 
I found that my my wife had several bars and some liquid too, it was all stashed in plain view under the bathroom sink.. so I took it to the authorities.. Yes I'm kidding.. ;-)

The ban is for good reason, if it helps any of the surviving elephants to survive and reproduce I'm all for it.. It's such minor thing to give up..
 
lfigueroa said:
Been traveling internationally with a cue with ivory in it for years.

Lou Figueroa
no one cares
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You’re not alone. A very respected member here has been doing the same for years. I’ve played him and seen the cue he travels with.

The other side is the ‘what if’ factor. Getting an item confiscated, dealing with being arrested possibly. All the bullshit and expense .

It just seems to be a risk not worth taking, at least for me.

We all make choices and the whole ‘all over the map’ regulations just makes it more problematic..
 
Quesports said:
You’re not alone. A very respected member here has been doing the same for years. I’ve played him and seen the cue he travels with.

The other side is the ‘what if’ factor. Getting an item confiscated, dealing with being arrested possibly. All the bullshit and expense .

It just seems to be a risk not worth taking, at least for me.

We all make choices and the whole ‘all over the map’ regulations just makes it more problematic..
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Make them choices every day.

I just feel there’s a lot of fear mongering going on in this thread.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Bavafongoul said:
Cues are still legal to build using ivory before 1978……..the cue maker just needs to reside in a state that does not
prohibit ivory sales and if the buyer lives in a state that does, the buyer must travel to the cue maker to transact the
purchase. The buyer cannot buy, or even technically speaking, order the cue while physically within the boundaries
of any state prohibiting ivory sales. The cue maker can build and sell ivory pool cues as long as he resides in a state
that doesn’t restrict ivory sales which is still the majority of our nation. A lot of cue makers just stopped using ivory.
Click to expand...

You will lose any cues with this mindset. Unless the ivory is absolutely verifiable as preban, you'll lose the cue
 
lfigueroa said:
Make them choices every day.

I just feel there’s a lot of fear mongering going on in this thread.

Lou Figueroa
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I think there is a lot of concern due to the mish mash of laws regarding the issue,

Whether the fear is real or justified depends on many things. If you did not see it I delivered a cue rather than ship it due to multiple factors. One was the issue at hand but it was just one quarter of my concerns.

Interestingly they all revolve over government and political meddling in areas that do not nor should not be their concern.

Big brother is a PITA !!!!!
 
ideologist said:
You will lose any cues with this mindset. Unless the ivory is absolutely verifiable as preban, you'll lose the cue.
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If a cue maker in Florida builds you a cue with ivory ferrule, butt cap, joint and include some inlays,
the cue is completely legal to build, sell or own. Who is going to come confiscate that cue? If the
cue owner changes jobs and relocates to California, the dreaded state of regulations galore, the
pool cue is still legal to own and travel with domestically. It is when the cue leaves U.S. boundaries
that problems ensue, or at least that’s been the precedent of cases to date. Now prudence might
influence avoiding owning cues with ivory for whatever reasons bother you the most. However, no
one I’ve ever heard of has legally confiscated someone’s pool cue during domestic travel within the
confines of the USA under the pretext that the cue contained poached ivory rather than pre-ban ‘78.
 
Bavafongoul said:
If a cue maker in Florida builds you a cue with ivory ferrule, butt cap, joint and include some inlays,
the cue is completely legal to build, sell or own. Who is going to come confiscate that cue? If the
cue owner changes jobs and relocates to California, the dreaded state of regulations galore, the
pool cue is still legal to own and travel with domestically. It is when the cue leaves U.S. boundaries
that problems ensue, or at least that’s been the precedent of cases to date. Now prudence might
influence avoiding owning cues with ivory for whatever reasons bother you the most. However, no
one I’ve ever heard of has legally confiscated someone’s pool cue during domestic travel within the
confines of the USA under the pretext that the cue contained poached ivory rather than pre-ban ‘78.
Click to expand...

US Fish and Wildlife has jurisdiction everywhere, it doesn't matter. CITES is a treaty they enforce
 
ideologist said:
US Fish and Wildlife has jurisdiction everywhere, it doesn't matter. CITES is a treaty they enforce
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State and federal laws are different. Federal laws with ivory deal with interstate and international commerce
whereas state laws regulate intrastate commerce. Business conducted within the same state is intrastate.

U.S. Fish & Wildlife should respect the absence, or enactment, of state laws regulating intrastate commerce.
Federal law is always preeminent to state law but state sovereignty also applies as outlined in the Constitution.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the U.S. Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
reserved to the States respectively, or, to the people. Each state has the authority to create its own laws, to
operate its own judicial system, and to effectively govern itself. If a state says ivory can still be sold, case closed.
When it says ivory cannot, or stipulates specific terms & conditions for the sale of ivory within the state, ditto again.
 
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