A video on pivoting systems

Well anything beyond the objectivity thing in my view has just been a personal vendetta because some people don't like some other people so they set out to demean them. Big of you to admit that, though I'm sure that other fellow whom I no longer acknowledge would do so. Anything beyond that is personal attacks and has nothing to do with how and why many of us use CTE.
All of the CTE skeptics would say that aiming at fractions on the ball is more or less objective because that is not what the issue is about, and it has nothing to do with personalities.

Let me explain with the Poolology analogy. There is a mathematical relationship between the diamonds on the rails and the position of the balls on the table. You look at the rails and you look at the cue ball and object ball and do some math. This produces a cut angle like for instance a 1/2 ball hit. So Poology has instructed you to use a half ball hit purely through the geometry of the table and mathematics. No guesswork. That's what we mean when we say a system is objective.

On the other hand, when CTE tells you to use a half ball hit nobody is able to explain why. Poolology makes use of the inscribed angle theorem and if you apply that to a pool table you can see for yourself how it works. There is no mystery.

Can you explain to us what it is that tells you to use a half ball hit when using CTE? I am talking about proof that it actually works not just to say "Well if I follow steps A, B and C it works." Please don't say 3D perception or round barns.
 
All of the CTE skeptics would say that aiming at fractions on the ball is more or less objective because that is not what the issue is about, and it has nothing to do with personalities.

Let me explain with the Poolology analogy. There is a mathematical relationship between the diamonds on the rails and the position of the balls on the table. You look at the rails and you look at the cue ball and object ball and do some math. This produces a cut angle like for instance a 1/2 ball hit. So Poology has instructed you to use a half ball hit purely through the geometry of the table and mathematics. No guesswork. That's what we mean when we say a system is objective.

On the other hand, when CTE tells you to use a half ball hit nobody is able to explain why. Poolology makes use of the inscribed angle theorem and if you apply that to a pool table you can see for yourself how it works. There is no mystery.

Can you explain to us what it is that tells you to use a half ball hit when using CTE? I am talking about proof that it actually works not just to say "Well if I follow steps A, B and C it works." Please don't say 3D perception or round barns.
Yeah ok, well unlike poolology, CTE has a multitude of known, measured positions for object and cue ball to create sighting and cueing exercises posted both in a very nice book as well as a multitude of free videos, meant to be performed repeatedly until they become instantly recognizable, and each one has it's defined perception, 1/2 ball 1/4 ball, whatever. It's meant to be trained into your vision and memory to be instantly recognizable. That is why you and others will never be successful with CTE, because you will never do the work that makes it work. And since the exercises have been tested they too need no guesswork. But just the 1/4 ball fractions will not provide the accuracy to pocket any cut shot with either Poolology or CTE, though it can make a lot of cut shots with either. Brian will tell you there are iffy at best shots with his method, or at least he has admitted to as much in public forum in the past. CTE uses the fractions but it does not solely depend on them for accuracy, only initial perception and basic alignment. The many hours of video speaking about vision center and visual alignment and parallax view, stepping, and gearing and such are where meat and potatoes come together and is yet another aspect that lazy critics will never understand. And then there is always the bale out so you don't sound like an frikkin idiot caviat like you are doing yet again, in this very conversation...........

Can you explain to us what it is that tells you to use a half ball hit when using CTE? I am talking about proof that it actually works not just to say "Well if I follow steps A, B and C it works."

Why do you require proof that it works beyond a CTE user saying he uses it, it works for him, etc etc? In fact, who the hell do you think you are to even demand proof? Admit to yourself that other people can do something you cannot because they put in the effort, or put in even more effort yourself and prove once and for all you were right all along and CTE, Stan, me, Barton, and thousands of others have been wrong the entire 20+ years, CTE cannot possibly work! We'll all suddenly start missing everything we shoot at and take up cornhole.

Brian wrote a poolology book and put it out for sale, extremely cheap I thought, so cheap I almost didn't buy it but anyway I gave it a shot and worked with it. One of the things I initially noticed were his zones, well one is this fraction, another is that fraction, but wait, they sometime overlap each other at the extremities. Well by god, that screams to me they cannot both be right, yet both are represented by mathematics. So I test it and you know what, sometimes it was off, iffy? That said, It does what it was touted to do, it helps people make more balls.

Now As far as CTE, I have never shot a realistic cut shot with CTE that cannot be made with a CTE method, not to say I make them all, I do not, because CTE is more accurate than a human is. The CTE method is the same every single shot but humans can only be as accurate as they can be.

Ask Brian the same question you asked me about the 1/2 ball hit. I don't know how to answer it honestly. I know you have sit in your tv or computer room watching countless hours of Stan and others pocketing balls repeatedly with 1/2 ball hits and wondering what the hell this guy knows that you don't?

And then, yet again I think, why should anyone have to prove anything to you?
 
Can you explain to us what it is that tells you to use a half ball hit when using CTE?
Yeah ok, well unlike poolology, CTE has a multitude of known, measured positions for object and cue ball to create sighting and cueing exercises posted both in a very nice book as well as a multitude of free videos, meant to be performed repeatedly until they become instantly recognizable, and each one has it's defined perception, 1/2 ball 1/4 ball, whatever. It's meant to be trained into your vision and memory to be instantly recognizable. That is why you and others will never be successful with CTE, because you will never do the work that makes it work. And since the exercises have been tested they too need no guesswork. But just the 1/4 ball fractions will not provide the accuracy to pocket any cut shot with either Poolology or CTE, though it can make a lot of cut shots with either. Brian will tell you there are iffy at best shots with his method, or at least he has admitted to as much in public forum in the past. CTE uses the fractions but it does not solely depend on them for accuracy, only initial perception and basic alignment. The many hours of video speaking about vision center and visual alignment and parallax view, stepping, and gearing and such are where meat and potatoes come together and is yet another aspect that lazy critics will never understand. And then there is always the bale out so you don't sound like an frikkin idiot caviat like you are doing yet again, in this very conversation...........

Can you explain to us what it is that tells you to use a half ball hit when using CTE? I am talking about proof that it actually works not just to say "Well if I follow steps A, B and C it works."

Why do you require proof that it works beyond a CTE user saying he uses it, it works for him, etc etc? In fact, who the hell do you think you are to even demand proof? Admit to yourself that other people can do something you cannot because they put in the effort, or put in even more effort yourself and prove once and for all you were right all along and CTE, Stan, me, Barton, and thousands of others have been wrong the entire 20+ years, CTE cannot possibly work! We'll all suddenly start missing everything we shoot at and take up cornhole.

Brian wrote a poolology book and put it out for sale, extremely cheap I thought, so cheap I almost didn't buy it but anyway I gave it a shot and worked with it. One of the things I initially noticed were his zones, well one is this fraction, another is that fraction, but wait, they sometime overlap each other at the extremities. Well by god, that screams to me they cannot both be right, yet both are represented by mathematics. So I test it and you know what, sometimes it was off, iffy? That said, It does what it was touted to do, it helps people make more balls.

Now As far as CTE, I have never shot a realistic cut shot with CTE that cannot be made with a CTE method, not to say I make them all, I do not, because CTE is more accurate than a human is. The CTE method is the same every single shot but humans can only be as accurate as they can be.

Ask Brian the same question you asked me about the 1/2 ball hit. I don't know how to answer it honestly. I know you have sit in your tv or computer room watching countless hours of Stan and others pocketing balls repeatedly with 1/2 ball hits and wondering what the hell this guy knows that you don't?

And then, yet again I think, why should anyone have to prove anything to you?
So… no, you can’t answer the question. Join the crowd.

pj
chgo
 
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So… no, you can’t answer the question. Join the crowd.

pj
chgo
Patrick I really and truly don't want to get into a CTE discussion, but I just have to know. I honestly feel you can make balls as proficiently with the CTE system as compared to any other system. If the system trains you to shoot shots and see shots IMO it's as good as any aiming system. All systems are baselines and if you train on them to proficiency at some point your subconscious knows what to do.

Is your main gripe on it the objectivity thing, and that proponents often say that your subconscious doesn't do adjustments with it?

I own Stan's book and I do believe it can get anyone aiming to a high degree. It's a very thick tome, and while I'm not sure that much text and diagrams are needed to aim pool balls, I think it's supposed to be as close to exhaustive on the subject as can be at the point in time the book was written. You really don't need the whole thing to get the system, but it just details almost anything that could come up.

So is it more the claims that bother you more than the fact it can be made workable?

I'm just curious if this is the main thing you take issue with. Obviously the prickly nature of some of the proponents is a bit out there too, and it's one tough nut for either side to forget about arguments in the past.

Personally I'm to the point that learning aiming systems is no longer very productive to my game. I honestly don't mind if someone aims with fractions, visualizations, contact points, ghost balls, lights or shadows on the table etc. I feel you can aim by almost any arbitrary method as long as you put in enough shots with careful observation to actually learn what happens.

Personally when I hear objective etc I just don't really care. Every person thinks their method is objective. Beginners think ghost ball is almost magic when you explain the concept to them.
 
Is your main gripe on it the objectivity thing, and that proponents often say that your subconscious doesn't do adjustments with it?
I don’t have a gripe with CTE - only with the way it’s promoted by the overzealous, underinformed “pushers” of this commercial product (I assume they’re just parroting its seller). No other aiming system I’m aware of engages in and defends false advertising (or advertises at all). I’ll keep pointing it out (calmly) and, unfortunately, they’ll keep imploding.

pj
chgo
 
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I don’t have a gripe with CTE - only with the way it’s promoted by the overzealous, underinformed “pushers” of this commercial product. No other aiming system I’m aware of engages in and defends false advertising (or advertises at all). I’ll keep pointing it out (calmly) and, unfortunately, they’ll keep imploding.

pj
chgo
Fair enough, thanks! The sales pitch is pretty off putting, almost like walking down the midway at a carnival.
 
Fair enough, thanks! The sales pitch is pretty off putting, almost like walking down the midway at a carnival.
yes, or like how evangelical christians really, really, really want you to know the good news about their savior and that you’re condemned for eternity if you don’t accept the same path
 
Yeah ok, well unlike poolology, CTE has a multitude of known, measured positions for object and cue ball to create sighting and cueing exercises posted both in a very nice book as well as a multitude of free videos, meant to be performed repeatedly until they become instantly recognizable, and each one has it's defined perception, 1/2 ball 1/4 ball, whatever. It's meant to be trained into your vision and memory to be instantly recognizable. That is why you and others will never be successful with CTE, because you will never do the work that makes it work. And since the exercises have been tested they too need no guesswork.
So you are saying the foundation of CTE is having known 1/4 and 1/2 and 3/4 ball hits set up so you can practice them and get a feel for what they look like by rote? How is that any different from HAMB?

But just the 1/4 ball fractions will not provide the accuracy to pocket any cut shot with either Poolology or CTE, though it can make a lot of cut shots with either. Brian will tell you there are iffy at best shots with his method, or at least he has admitted to as much in public forum in the past.
That's because the math actually generates arcs. Brian had to smooth the arcs into straight lines to make the system usable. So his method is a simplified approximation of the actual geometry.

CTE uses the fractions but it does not solely depend on them for accuracy, only initial perception and basic alignment. The many hours of video speaking about vision center and visual alignment and parallax view, stepping, and gearing and such are where meat and potatoes come together and is yet another aspect that lazy critics will never understand. And then there is always the bale out so you don't sound like an frikkin idiot caviat like you are doing yet again, in this very conversation...........
I thought you weren't interested in the arguing and insults, yet in this otherwise civil back and forth you resort to that very thing.

Can you explain to us what it is that tells you to use a half ball hit when using CTE? I am talking about proof that it actually works not just to say "Well if I follow steps A, B and C it works."

Why do you require proof that it works beyond a CTE user saying he uses it, it works for him, etc etc? In fact, who the hell do you think you are to even demand proof? Admit to yourself that other people can do something you cannot because they put in the effort, or put in even more effort yourself and prove once and for all you were right all along and CTE, Stan, me, Barton, and thousands of others have been wrong the entire 20+ years, CTE cannot possibly work! We'll all suddenly start missing everything we shoot at and take up cornhole.

Brian wrote a poolology book and put it out for sale, extremely cheap I thought, so cheap I almost didn't buy it but anyway I gave it a shot and worked with it. One of the things I initially noticed were his zones, well one is this fraction, another is that fraction, but wait, they sometime overlap each other at the extremities. Well by god, that screams to me they cannot both be right, yet both are represented by mathematics. So I test it and you know what, sometimes it was off, iffy? That said, It does what it was touted to do, it helps people make more balls.

Now As far as CTE, I have never shot a realistic cut shot with CTE that cannot be made with a CTE method, not to say I make them all, I do not, because CTE is more accurate than a human is. The CTE method is the same every single shot but humans can only be as accurate as they can be.

Ask Brian the same question you asked me about the 1/2 ball hit. I don't know how to answer it honestly. I know you have sit in your tv or computer room watching countless hours of Stan and others pocketing balls repeatedly with 1/2 ball hits and wondering what the hell this guy knows that you don't?

And then, yet again I think, why should anyone have to prove anything to you?
I think you are using a form of CTE that Stan does not teach. Maybe JB will chime in.

As far as Brian and the 1/2 ball hit I just laid it all out for you in my prior post. That was the whole point. I don't think you understand what Stan means when he says his system is 100% objective. You should reread the above and think about it.
 
So you are saying the foundation of CTE is having known 1/4 and 1/2 and 3/4 ball hits set up so you can practice them and get a feel for what they look like by rote? How is that any different from HAMB?


That's because the math actually generates arcs. Brian had to smooth the arcs into straight lines to make the system usable. So his method is a simplified approximation of the actual geometry.


I thought you weren't interested in the arguing and insults, yet in this otherwise civil back and forth you resort to that very thing.


I think you are using a form of CTE that Stan does not teach. Maybe JB will chime in.

As far as Brian and the 1/2 ball hit I just laid it all out for you in my prior post. That was the whole point. I don't think you understand what Stan means when he says his system is 100% objective. You should reread the above and think about it.
I merely point out that the very thing you say is objective for one system is not objective for the other, when Stan is associated with the other. The use of fractional ball visuals is either objective or it ain't, Which is it today?
 
I merely point out that the very thing you say is objective for one system is not objective for the other, when Stan is associated with the other. The use of fractional ball visuals is either objective or it ain't, Which is it today?
Poolology’s fractions are calculated for you by the system’s math.

pj
chgo
 
I merely point out that the very thing you say is objective for one system is not objective for the other, when Stan is associated with the other. The use of fractional ball visuals is either objective or it ain't, Which is it today?
The fractions are equally objective no matter what system you use. In Poolology that fraction is derived for you mathematically, which is objective. In CTE the fractions are also supposedly derived objectively but nobody seems to know how. According to you they are learned by rote practice. I think you are right.
 
I merely point out that the very thing you say is objective for one system is not objective for the other, when Stan is associated with the other. The use of fractional ball visuals is either objective or it ain't, Which is it today?


I think what Dan is saying is that the solution is the objective part with Poolology. By referencing known quarter fractions, which are somewhat objective visual landmarks (based on ob width), the system provides a straightforward fractional aiming solution for most shots.

With CTE, those same fractional landmark references are also somewhat objective, but the solution is not derived in a straightforward fractional manner. Rather it is derived from a visual process that is shrouded in mystery, beyond the simple references of basic fractional quarters.

The two aiming methods are completely different, of course, in how the references lead to a solution. I'm not knocking CTE. To each their own. For anyone that can understand it and make it work, have at it.
 
With CTE, those same fractional landmark references are also somewhat objective, but the solution is not derived in a straightforward fractional manner. Rather it is derived from a visual process that is shrouded in mystery, beyond the simple references of basic fractional quarters.
No mystery about it, the aiming is just just from an offset position as opposed the straight down the cue, but it's always at the same offset. That is where the parallax reference comes into play. The mystery is now solved.
 
No mystery about it, the aiming is just just from an offset position as opposed the straight down the cue, but it's always at the same offset. That is where the parallax reference comes into play. The mystery is now solved.
Contact points are not used as reference?
Or the tangent line?
 
No mystery about it, the aiming is just just from an offset position as opposed the straight down the cue, but it's always at the same offset. That is where the parallax reference comes into play. The mystery is now solved.
Makes perfect sense now.

lol

pj
chgo
 
No mystery about it, the aiming is just just from an offset position as opposed the straight down the cue, but it's always at the same offset. That is where the parallax reference comes into play. The mystery is now solved.
Yesterday you didn't know what the 20-year-old argument was even about and today you have solved it. At least you didn't say "round barn."
 
No mystery about it, the aiming is just just from an offset position as opposed the straight down the cue, but it's always at the same offset. That is where the parallax reference comes into play. The mystery is now solved.

The offset is the mystery for me. In one video, an old one, Stan shows a very objective process for a half-tip offset and manual pivot. The process has been refined since then, and it's different now, because of the "sweep", rather than a manual pivot. And that's the mystery for me, but I'm okay with it. In other words, I'm fine with not understanding it.
 
The offset is the mystery for me. In one video, an old one, Stan shows a very objective process for a half-tip offset and manual pivot. The process has been refined since then, and it's different now, because of the "sweep", rather than a manual pivot. And that's the mystery for me, but I'm okay with it. In other words, I'm fine with not understanding it.
Well you are confusing 2 distinctly different methods, one that pivots and one that sweeps.
 
Yesterday you didn't know what the 20-year-old argument was even about and today you have solved it. At least you didn't say "round barn."
I know for 20 years cte has not been objective for a select few, that think their opinions matter. They don't. it still just works.
Yesterday you didn't know what the 20-year-old argument was even about and today you have solved it. At least you didn't say "round barn."
The reference was to the Mystery of why which fractional visual to use, one is done with some made up mathematical equation and the other is made up of actually training ones self to recognize angular positions to the pockets. Still no mystery there.
 
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