Who You Got? Mike Sigel or Nick Varner

[sjm]

I've been accused of worse! In the pool world ten years is a generation apart and Francisco who is maybe 61 is a good ten plus years younger than Nick, so you have a point. Their careers definitely did overlap in the 1990's, the years of the Camel Pro Tour. Nick was still very active all through the 1990's and still winning tournaments. I don't know how often Django and Nick played in that time frame, but it would be interesting to know the outcome of their matches. Although Nick beat Efren in that big match in the Philippines, I'm not sure he wanted to take on Francisco back then.

Actually, Francisco is still 60 and Nick is 76, so more years apart than you think.

Agreed that there was a little overlap between Nick and Francisco. I'd say that by about 1997, Francisco would have been the clear favorite over Nick in an action match, but Nick was almost 50 by then.

To me, prime Nick was from 1980-95.

 

[Fatboy]

Trivia time:

I didn’t know this until a couple years ago.

What does Busty and Fatboy share?

Do we play the same? lol

Answer:

Born on 29 December

He’s older and just in case you wondered……he plays better.

Back to meaningful posts in the best thread here in a long time

Fatboy

 

[sjm]

What does Busty and Fatboy share?

Both prefer their five-ball orange.

 

[BasementDweller]

I can only conclude that the votes for Varner were mostly from posters who never saw Sigel in his prime. Until 1989, Nick wasn’t really in the conversation. Just looking at say 1985-1988, at the start of any random 9-ball tournament, the two favorites to win against the field would have been Sigel and Strickland aside from 1989. Buddy and maybe someone like Efren Reyes ad David Howard would be the next.

9-ball "Major" tournaments (not satellite or regional tours):

1984 - Strickland had 4, and Buddy had 3; Sigel had 1 title in a down year; Varner had 1 top 4 finish, no titles (my saved files don't show the 14.1 tournaments of that year)

1985 - Efren makes his splash and has 3 titles, Earl 3; Sigel 2 (plus World 14.1 for a third major); Wade Crane 2; Buddy 1; Varner not in the top 20 of money list

1986 - Sigel 5 titles; Strickland 0 in a down year; Efren, David Howard, Parica, Medina, Rempe all squeak out 1; Varner in 10 9-ball tournaments has zero but wins the World 14.1 Championship for 1 "major"

1987 - Buddy comes back with 4 big titles; Sigel and Strickland with 3 each;Varner gets 1; Strickland then Sigel lead the money title as Earl starts to take the #1 9-ball position away from Mike

1988 - Strickland with 6 wins; Sigel 3 (plus the World 14.1 for a 4th big title of the year); David Howard 2; Varner 2; Lebron 2 (including a win over Varner in the US Open 9-ball); Efren gets 1 (beat Sigel in the finals of McD Masters)

1989 - Varner with 8 (best year for anyone ever); Sigel 2; Kim Davenport 2 (and the 2nd best player of the year); Buddy 2; Hopkins 1 ; STrickland 0

So if we take a look at just the 2nd half of the 1980's, Sigel consistently compiled tournaments in 9-ball and the few 14.1 tournaments. Strickland put in monster numbers, but didn't win a tournament in two entire years (as far as the professional large tournaments are concerned). Varner wasn't even a consideration until his breakout year of 1989. Efren, aside from his first suprise year, only won 2 more big tournaments in the 80's with many 2nd places, so it's not like he wasn't playing the tournaments. He won several tier 2 events.

In 1989, Sigel was elected to the BCA Hall of Fame. That was the first time I heard (read) him saying that his future in the game was in question. He was a hall of famer, and there was no money in the game and that he had other things that could bring in money. I know officially he retired in 1994, but there was no question in this fan's mind that he was on the ramp down by 1990, and it wasn't because players were breathing down his neck.

I think this poll really should be Sigel vs Strickland.

For 9-ball only, here's the table. There were 5 major 14.1 events in this time. Sigel 2, Miz, Rempe, Varner each got 1

View attachment 797865

This is very compelling information. It would be hard to argue that Sigel or Earl wasn't the best player between 84 to 89 based on this table. What are the events you're tracking here?

It's also at least worth mentioning again that Nick was Billiards Digest Player of the Year in 1980 (and 1989. I see why). Then National Billiard News Player of the Year in 1982. So he must have been doing something in the earlier part of the 80's. Admittedly, it looks like he had a cold spell. Not sure how he feed himself during those years.

***Edit***
I'm just asking generally what tourneys are these? I'm guessing whatever the precursor to the PBT was. How'd you determine what was worth tracking?

 

[WildWing]

There's a back story to all this, which I think is in Pool Wars in more detail. Besides the nice first prize of $10,000 the winner of the final match (to 200!) would be awarded a brand new Gold Crown table, valued at over $2,500 back then. Mizerak was so confident of his victory that just prior to the match he gave his address to the representative from Brunswick (Jim Bakula I believe), for the delivery. Oliver overheard this conversation and that gave him the incentive to do anything he could to keep Steve from running balls. He would slow the game down to a crawl and make Steve work for every shot. This strategy killed all the momentum in an already slow game, and what you saw was the result. Oliver's strategy worked out well for him though, and a frustrated Mizerak ended up losing the match and the table.

Very interesting story, I don't doubt you're right. I would have thought Mizerak would have already had a Gold Crown in his house, but maybe not. As for Ortmann, he may have had that strategy, but he missed so many easy shots, and made the match so close, that I think his strategy almost backfired on him. It was a strange match. I still remember all the commentators. Grady, Danny, Billy, Freddy, Rusty. I may have missed one or so.

 

[Cornerman]

This is very compelling information. It would be hard to argue that Sigel or Earl wasn't the best player between 84 to 89 based on this table. What are the events you're tracking here?

It's also at least worth mentioning again that Nick was Billiards Digest Player of the Year in 1980 (and 1989. I see why). Then National Billiard News Player of the Year in 1982. So he must have been doing something in the earlier part of the 80's. Admittedly, it looks like he had a cold spell. Not sure how he feed himself during those years.

***Edit***
I'm just asking generally what tourneys are these? I'm guessing whatever the precursor to the PBT was. How'd you determine what was worth tracking?

These are all the “major” event results listed in Billiards Digest at the end of the year. Billiards Digest also listed the regional events and other “non-tour” events as they were. So some were PBT years, some were MPBA etc. whatever was deemed the top events of the year with at least $5k first place and all the top players in the field. The idea of “major” events was always difficult for pro pool.

If I included 1977-1983, the gap would be greater, and Mizerak, Hopkins and Rempe would be more in the mix, while Earl would be less in the mix.

 

[markjames]

Anyone under about 52 was probably unqualified to vote in this poll, and to have seen most of Sigel's prime, you'd probably have to be at least 60 years old.

like an electoral college?

 

[jalapus logan]

I'm pretty sure you are thinking of Bustamante's match against Rafael Martinez at the 2011 DCC 10-Ball Challenge, a Fatboy event on a 9-footer. Bustamante's B&R package in that match was 6 games, not 7. He also had 2 other B&Rs in that match, for a total of 8 in the match on his 15 breaks.

Thanks for this correction... wow, what a performance

 

[jay helfert]

Very interesting story, I don't doubt you're right. I would have thought Mizerak would have already had a Gold Crown in his house, but maybe not. As for Ortmann, he may have had that strategy, but he missed so many easy shots, and made the match so close, that I think his strategy almost backfired on him. It was a strange match. I still remember all the commentators. Grady, Danny, Billy, Freddy, Rusty. I may have missed one or so.

He may well have had a Gold Crown already but he damn sure wanted this one too. George Fels and I did the live television commentary of the final match. It was broadcast on a local Chicago television network. I have a copy of it on my website. Not sure what commentary you're referring too.

 

[jay helfert]

Actually, Francisco is still 60 and Nick is 76, so more years apart than you think.

Agreed that there was a little overlap between Nick and Francisco. I'd say that by about 1997, Francisco would have been the clear favorite over Nick in an action match, but Nick was almost 50 by then.

To me, prime Nick was from 1980-95.

Francisco turns 61 this month. Fifteen years may be considered a generation apart but it is not at all unusual for top players to be spread out over a twenty year plus age gap. Lots of forty somethings still whipping it up on the twenty something group of champs. The 50's is when many players start heading downhill, and some don't! Efren for one.

 

[WildWing]

He may well have had a Gold Crown already but he damn sure wanted this one too. George Fels and I did the live television commentary of the final match. It was broadcast on a local Chicago television network. I have a copy of it on my website. Not sure what commentary you're referring too.

I'm referring to the Accu-Stats video of the match.

 

[AtLarge]

Yes, but his last year playing a full slate of competition was 1992. Yes, he played a few events after that, but because he became a part-timer in 1993, most of us who followed his career closely consider him to have retired then.

It looks like Sigel still played quite a bit in 1993. The Feb. 1994 issue of Pool & Billiard Magazine has a table showing all of the Pro Billiard Tour results for 1993. It shows 13 1993 PBT events. Sigel cashed in 10 of the 13 -- second once and third 4 times, but no wins. I know he played in one of the other 3 events, finishing out of the money, but I don't know whether he played in the other 2.

 

[jalapus logan]

Francisco turns 61 this month. Fifteen years may be considered a generation apart but it is not at all unusual for top players to be spread out over a twenty year plus age gap. Lots of forty somethings still whipping it up on the twenty something group of champs. The 50's is when many players start heading downhill, and some don't! Efren for one.

Being 47 years old, this post comforts me

 

[banged up]

Buddy at 9ball was legendary, just a half notch below Mike and Nick on the big tables, and Buddy may well have been the best ever 9baller on the seven-footer. Not known as a straight pooler.

Buddy's true legacy is that he is the "Efren" of position play. In the same way that Efren got everyone thinking differently about kicking by demonstrating unprecedented precision and imagination, Buddy got everybody thinking differently about pattern/position play. His "clock system" set the stage for the most productive considerations ever of rotation pool position play. I wouldn't say he played the patterns any better than two other legendary position players that came later, Souquet and Appleton, but he showed everybody how to go about pattern play and his influence is still felt.

On to Rempe. One thing that I noted earlier is how both Mike and Nick transitioned seamlessly from the straight pool era to the 9ball era. Each was top five in both time periods in the respective disciplines. Rempe is another guy who transitioned seamlessly, surely a top ten player while he played in the straight pool era and top ten again once he transitioned to 9ball. Rempe was a small notch below Sigel, Buddy, Earl, Varner, Reyes, Parica and Archer as a 9baller, but he won a lot of big titles and was a very technically elegant player from whom you could learn a lot by watching.

Rempe was an elite pattern player at both straight pool and 9ball and was, by the way, an early influence of Ralf Souquet. Those of us who watched prime Mike Sigel often call him the "greatest closer we have ever watched." If Rempe had a weakness, it was that he was not a great closer, and it often meant a lot of second and third place finishes.

Didn't buddy give Sigel the 8 on a 9 ft for the cash and get there? You go back further than i do so you might know better but i seem to recall reading that. Varner also won a world tile older than anyone(or real close to it) has and id think that counts for something. Beating the pinoys on their home turf for the cash including Efren has to be worth something.

 

[garczar]

Voted Sigel. IMO if they played a all-around for a large stack i see Mike winning everything except maybe the 1p. Sigel in his prime was a complete ball-making monster. Nick the Gum Smacker would have put the 'wedge' on Mike is the reason i like Nick by a nose in 1p. That slow bunt-n-hide shit would have driven Mike insane.

 

[sjm]

Didn't buddy give Sigel the 8 on a 9 ft for the cash and get there? You go back further than i do so you might know better but i seem to recall reading that. Varner also won a world tile older than anyone(or real close to it) has and id think that counts for something. Beating the pinoys on their home turf for the cash including Efren has to be worth something.

I thought that was on a seven-footer, but I am just not sure. Sigel was in his early 20s at the time. There are not too many left who watched Buddy in the Shreveport, Louisiana days of the 1970s, but legend has it that this was when he was at his most dominant in action pool.

Before my time.

 

[jay helfert]

I thought that was on a seven-footer, but I am just not sure. Sigel was in his early 20s at the time. There are not too many left who watched Buddy in the Shreveport, Louisiana days of the 1970s, but legend has it that this was when he was at his most dominant in action pool.

Before my time.

The only player who ever beat Buddy in Shreveport was Dan Louie! No one else could.
I will add only this. No one else ever screwed down on the cue stick like Dan Louie. I'd look at him when he was looking down the barrel of his cue and I knew he was never going to miss a ball. Dan didn't travel much after his formative years, sticking close to his home and family business in Seattle, but he dominated pool in the northwest for decades! One last factoid, I beat Dan in Dayton 11-6 in 1974 in the only match we ever played, so how good was I?

Okay, one more about my great friend Dan Louie. He and Mike Sigel played an epic match in the finals that went into double overtime at the huge Bend, OR tournament in 1976. Danny boy won that match. It was my first time serving as a TD, hired by hustler turned promoter Ronnie Allen. I also had the honor of doing the live broadcast on the radio for a Portland, OR radio station. How about them apples!

 

[jay helfert]

Didn't buddy give Sigel the 8 on a 9 ft for the cash and get there? You go back further than i do so you might know better but i seem to recall reading that. Varner also won a world tile older than anyone(or real close to it) has and id think that counts for something. Beating the pinoys on their home turf for the cash including Efren has to be worth something.

I don't remember Buddy giving Mike any weight. Sigel was not a great bar table player. He got torched by some of the Mexican greats when he came to Cali. On a bar table the eight ball meant virtually nothing.

 

[sjm]

The only player who ever beat Buddy in Shreveport was Dan Louie! No one else could.

For once, it seems, the legend does not seem to have grown with time. Buddy, it seems, really was that tough in the Shreveport days. In about 1977, I recall hearing that some guy in Louisiana was calling out every player in the world to come and gamble with him. At the time, I had never even heard of Buddy Hall, but I learned several years later that it had been Buddy indeed.

Thanks, Jay, for chiming in and confirming the legend. Props to Dan Louie, too, for beating him.

 

[Fatboy]

I don't remember Buddy giving Mike any weight. Sigel was not a great bar table player. He got torched by some of the Mexican greats when he came to Cali. On a bar table the eight ball meant virtually nothing.

Some of those Mexican greats might torch any players we have ever known. It’s scary how good they were. Especially last pocket 8B.