Sigel fan but only that. No actual preference or bet for that matter. Be like betting whose turn to win.
Who You Got? Mike Sigel or Nick Varner
- Thread starter BasementDweller
- Start date
In case anyone cares, at the end of 1999, Billiards Digest published its "Best 50 players of the 20th century" list. Sigel was #5 and Varner was #14.
I'm surprised that more than a few on AZB who saw both prime Sigel and prime Varner rated Nick higher, but I know how many old timers there are on this forum, and I must respect their opinion. Anyone under about 52 was probably unqualified to vote in this poll, and to have seen most of Sigel's prime, you'd probably have to be at least 60 years old. I hope those who didn't see prime Sigel have not tried to compare him to Varner based on hearsay alone.
Interestingly, Reyes wasn't very high on the "all century" list, but it was from 1999-2010 that he won Derby City Master of the Table five times, and it was in 2006 that he proved himself the best 8ball player of all time. By then, he had also proven himself to be the best one-pocket player of all time.
Anyway, this has been a good thread for those of us who saw prime Sigel and prime Varner to reminisce about their greatness. We were lucky to be able to watch them in their superstar years. To Mike and Nick, I say "thanks for the memories."
I'm surprised that more than a few on AZB who saw both prime Sigel and prime Varner rated Nick higher, but I know how many old timers there are on this forum, and I must respect their opinion. Anyone under about 52 was probably unqualified to vote in this poll, and to have seen most of Sigel's prime, you'd probably have to be at least 60 years old. I hope those who didn't see prime Sigel have not tried to compare him to Varner based on hearsay alone.
Interestingly, Reyes wasn't very high on the "all century" list, but it was from 1999-2010 that he won Derby City Master of the Table five times, and it was in 2006 that he proved himself the best 8ball player of all time. By then, he had also proven himself to be the best one-pocket player of all time.
Anyway, this has been a good thread for those of us who saw prime Sigel and prime Varner to reminisce about their greatness. We were lucky to be able to watch them in their superstar years. To Mike and Nick, I say "thanks for the memories."
There's a back story to all this, which I think is in Pool Wars in more detail. Besides the nice first prize of $10,000 the winner of the final match (to 200!) would be awarded a brand new Gold Crown table, valued at over $2,500 back then. Mizerak was so confident of his victory that just prior to the match he gave his address to the representative from Brunswick (Jim Bakula I believe), for the delivery. Oliver overheard this conversation and that gave him the incentive to do anything he could to keep Steve from running balls. He would slow the game down to a crawl and make Steve work for every shot. This strategy killed all the momentum in an already slow game, and what you saw was the result. Oliver's strategy worked out well for him though, and a frustrated Mizerak ended up losing the match and the table.
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I will take a sideways slant here, due to an omission on my part. In speaking about the very best players during the time of Sigel and Varner I left out one monster player who deserves mention. He came along toward the tail end of Mike's career but was a dominant player during the 1990's and 2000's. The fact that he did not stay in the U.S. all the time (probably due to visa restrictions) and he missed many U.S. based events does not detract from his greatness in any way. He won several world titles (9-Ball and others), all held either in Europe or Asia. Plus some of the biggest tournaments held in Japan and the Philippines. When he was able to stay here longer one year he managed to win the Camel Pro Tour overall title (60k bonus!) in the late 1990's. Two times he won the World Cup with Efren as his partner. By now you know I'm talking about Francisco "Django" Bustamante. He is also a member of the BCA HOF.
Besides all his tournament credentials he was a feared money player, probably right up there with Parica and Orcollo as the best ever to come out of the Philippines. Django backed down from no one, including Buddy Hall, Earl or Johnny Archer. He was the victim of Archer's fabled thirteen rack break and run match. What most don't know is that he told Johnny to flip a coin for the next set! Not on that day, but he eventually did get his revenge.
Even during the last five to ten years Francisco would come here in January just for the Derby City Classic. He won several divisions in that time and one Master of the Table title.
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Excellent post Jay. From what I've read, Bustamante said to double the bet and flip the coin, but Johnny declined.
This entire thread has been one of the most entertaining in a long time for me.
Tons of substantive thoughts and insights.
As I am in my late 70s, I have seen both of these players in both tournaments and action many times.
Joe Burns’ Forest Park (Dayton) in 1973 and onward, Lexington, Starcher’s (I lived in Akron, played in a lot of their
tournaments), most Derby years, Toledo, Canton, US Open, their Florida years, etc..
When I think of these two, I often think of two world class Olympic swimmers in an 8-lap finale.
Watching them swim, first one leading then the other, not sure at all who will win, not even sure who is leading.
Then they reach the end.
After 8 long laps it was so close I couldn’t tell at all who won, I had to check the digital timer.
One of them wins by thousandths of a second on that day. The other one on another.
Of the two, who is best? I surely don’t know.
Who is my personal favorite? Nick Varner-- by a bunch, not even close.
(Although I sure did love Sigel‘s stroke, best I ever saw).
Will Prout
Tons of substantive thoughts and insights.
As I am in my late 70s, I have seen both of these players in both tournaments and action many times.
Joe Burns’ Forest Park (Dayton) in 1973 and onward, Lexington, Starcher’s (I lived in Akron, played in a lot of their
tournaments), most Derby years, Toledo, Canton, US Open, their Florida years, etc..
When I think of these two, I often think of two world class Olympic swimmers in an 8-lap finale.
Watching them swim, first one leading then the other, not sure at all who will win, not even sure who is leading.
Then they reach the end.
After 8 long laps it was so close I couldn’t tell at all who won, I had to check the digital timer.
One of them wins by thousandths of a second on that day. The other one on another.
Of the two, who is best? I surely don’t know.
Who is my personal favorite? Nick Varner-- by a bunch, not even close.
(Although I sure did love Sigel‘s stroke, best I ever saw).
Will Prout
Being a youngster of 47 years of age, I can finally opine knowledgeably in this thread based on eye witness accounts
. Butsi will always be one of my all time favs. His unique and dynamic cue delivery will forever be burned into the minds of many. He was a threat to win any event he entered in any discipline. I'll always remember that big package he put up at the Derby one year....I think it was in the Fatboy 10 Ball Challenge where he put up a 7 pack if I recall correctly. Great, great player, thanks for bringing him up.
I feel your timing is off, Jay.
Bustamante, an undisputed legend of the game, was a bit of a late bloomer. For many years, he was known as guy who could win lots of titles but could not get over the finish line in the biggest spots.
In his prime, the four "giant-field" WPA sanctioned majors, by my account, were the WPA World 9ball Championship, the US Open 9ball championship, the All- Japan 9ball Championship and the China Open 9ball. He broke through by winning the All-Japan in 2002 at age 38 and won it again in 2009 at age 45. He did not win a WPA world 9ball until 2010, at age 46. He never won at either the US Open or the China Open.
The legendary Bustamante's best years did not really coincide with either prime Sigel or prime Varner.
No JA didn’t declineExcellent post Jay. From what I've read, Bustamante said to double the bet and flip the coin, but Johnny declined.
In an interview with TAR on youtube, Johnny declined the doubled bet, but he didn’t decline the set.
I’ll ask him today. That sounds right. He ran 15, he had 2 going into the set of 13. Was in the old tunnel Diamond table with the super deep shelf’s.
I can only conclude that the votes for Varner were mostly from posters who never saw Sigel in his prime. Until 1989, Nick wasn’t really in the conversation. Just looking at say 1985-1988, at the start of any random 9-ball tournament, the two favorites to win against the field would have been Sigel and Strickland aside from 1989. Buddy and maybe someone like Efren Reyes ad David Howard would be the next.
9-ball "Major" tournaments (not satellite or regional tours):
1984 - Strickland had 4, and Buddy had 3; Sigel had 1 title in a down year; Varner had 1 top 4 finish, no titles (my saved files don't show the 14.1 tournaments of that year)
1985 - Efren makes his splash and has 3 titles, Earl 3; Sigel 2 (plus World 14.1 for a third major); Wade Crane 2; Buddy 1; Varner not in the top 20 of money list
1986 - Sigel 5 titles; Strickland 0 in a down year; Efren, David Howard, Parica, Medina, Rempe all squeak out 1; Varner in 10 9-ball tournaments has zero but wins the World 14.1 Championship for 1 "major"
1987 - Buddy comes back with 4 big titles; Sigel and Strickland with 3 each;Varner gets 1; Strickland then Sigel lead the money title as Earl starts to take the #1 9-ball position away from Mike
1988 - Strickland with 6 wins; Sigel 3 (plus the World 14.1 for a 4th big title of the year); David Howard 2; Varner 2; Lebron 2 (including a win over Varner in the US Open 9-ball); Efren gets 1 (beat Sigel in the finals of McD Masters)
1989 - Varner with 8 (best year for anyone ever); Sigel 2; Kim Davenport 2 (and the 2nd best player of the year); Buddy 2; Hopkins 1 ; STrickland 0
So if we take a look at just the 2nd half of the 1980's, Sigel consistently compiled tournaments in 9-ball and the few 14.1 tournaments. Strickland put in monster numbers, but didn't win a tournament in two entire years (as far as the professional large tournaments are concerned). Varner wasn't even a consideration until his breakout year of 1989. Efren, aside from his first suprise year, only won 2 more big tournaments in the 80's with many 2nd places, so it's not like he wasn't playing the tournaments. He won several tier 2 events.
In 1989, Sigel was elected to the BCA Hall of Fame. That was the first time I heard (read) him saying that his future in the game was in question. He was a hall of famer, and there was no money in the game and that he had other things that could bring in money. I know officially he retired in 1994, but there was no question in this fan's mind that he was on the ramp down by 1990, and it wasn't because players were breathing down his neck.
I think this poll really should be Sigel vs Strickland.
For 9-ball only, here's the table. There were 5 major 14.1 events in this time. Sigel 2, Miz, Rempe, Varner each got 1
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Johnny clarifies that the question was about betting more. Johnny and his backers declined. Francisco won the last set.
All good, we talk all the time.
I'm pretty sure you are thinking of Bustamante's match against Rafael Martinez at the 2011 DCC 10-Ball Challenge, a Fatboy event on a 9-footer. Bustamante's B&R package in that match was 6 games, not 7. He also had 2 other B&Rs in that match, for a total of 8 in the match on his 15 breaks.
I've been accused of worse! In the pool world ten years is a generation apart and Francisco who is maybe 61 is a good ten plus years younger than Nick, so you have a point. Their careers definitely did overlap in the 1990's, the years of the Camel Pro Tour. Nick was still very active all through the 1990's and still winning tournaments. I don't know how often Django and Nick played in that time frame, but it would be interesting to know the outcome of their matches. Although Nick beat Efren in that big match in the Philippines, I'm not sure he wanted to take on Francisco back then.