Magic Rack and Joshua Filler's 7-pack

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
Though today I am a railbird, I used to play, competing on the leagues and in local tournaments., I also went on the road a few years in the '80s with a road player. As such, I really do understand all games of pocket billiards.

I made a thread on my Facebook page about Joshua Filler's 7-pack, and much to my surprise, my other half posted on my thread he thought the Magic Rack shouldn't be allowed. I asked him privately why. Well, I thought about it. Doesn't the Magic Rack create the perfect rack with no cracks? Doesn't a pool player have to break perfectly each time in order for the wing ball to fly in the side? In comparison, when pins are racked in a bowling alley, doesn't the bowler have to hit them perfeclty in order to make a strike?

Some pros today practice their breaks. I saw Earl Strickland do it over and over again at many tournaments. Shane Van Boening is also a break mechanic. The break, at least in my eyes today, is just as important as having the ability to run out. Without a good break, even if you can run out, you will never be able to dominate. The break is THAT important.

In my eyes, the only way the Magic rack cannot be perfect is if the placement is off a few millimeters on the spot. By my own admission, I've never played pool with a Magic Rack and would enjoy hearing thoughts from others who have.

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iusedtoberich said:
I saw 2 pros almost come to blows, and one was about the calmest person you could imagine, over a 9 ball that was heading towards the corner on the break.
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Different instance, but Pia and Jasmin had a match where the 9 was heading straight for the corner on every break. Jasmin took advantage of having a stronger break (which I don't blame her for), and Pia was (rightfully) upset the racks were allowing it. This was with an official racking using an Aero Rack.
Could even see Pia and Jasmin trying to rack after the match and agreeing the corner ball wasn't staying tight. A template would have mitigated it.

(That official also made a boggling shot clock error on the first shot after a break too. I think they called the head official over 2-3 times during/after the set...)
 
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jasonlaus said:
And it's never happened - just shows how insane all these posters are, derby has been around since the 90s with 400 - 500 players per year and it's NEVER happened
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I think we can all agree that would be damn fun to watch. Back to back 9-packs then sudden death? That would be NUTS.

Agree that running sets isn't an issue nor will it be in any of the big majors with stupidly tight pockets and MR break rules. When someone has a big pack, they earn the win and it just sucks for their opponent. Return the favor next time if you can...

I've come to really like the best of 3 races to 4 format. I think it's a good compromise without making the matches insanely long like a race to 9 alternating break.
 
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skogstokig said:
accustats is PPV and it was on the PPV table. they don't do highlights or compressed matches to my knowledge.

honestly i don't understand why they just put it on the tube like a week after. most people pay for the live PPV anyway. if sport isn't live i'm not super interested personally. but pool is kinda unique in it's history with "after the fact" viewing, up until recently
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Well, I found it hidden on the Accu-Stats website which is PPV with Digital Pool. I'm not sure I understand how to watch it. Here is the link: https://digitalpool.net/diamond/feature-01-26-2025-055312/

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You don’t have to literally run out the set, in order to “run out the set”. IIRC at large posted a 7 pack and another BNR. Filler made 81 balls, SVB made zero. This is exactly the situation Matchroom, and everyone else, is trying to avoid. Kudos to Filler, he recognized the different conditions, and took advantage of them. At this level, it’s going to happen. Several months ago, middle Ko played a match and broke the one ball in the side every time. Alternate break, his opponent played well, got smoked.
 
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mjantti said:
Just my personal opinion: allow the rack to be moved up and down a few inches and also tilt it randomly by an inch. Template is good way to get a perfect rack on a worn cloth, but it is the standardized position of the rack that creates the predictability of the break. I'd like to see old school 9-ball blast breaks without the contemporary predictability.
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I like this bizarre idea. Maybe some rule that the rack has to be generally straight and at least a ball off the rail and then just plop it down somewhere in the non-kitchen and smash em up

Your idea seemed to be to keep the rack on the middle diamond line which is more reasonable for real tournaments but I’d like to see what happens with random rack placement.

Probably players would find the spot that gives the worst pocketing chance/layout and use it every time when racking for opponents, and find a spot that guarantees the 1b in the side or back corner every time and use that for themselves lol.

There’s no problem, and also no fix to the problem.
 
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Races need to be longer and 9 ball should be changed to a modified rules 9ball game, similar to 10 ball. Or they should be playing 10ball, at this caliber of play people have perfected so many things that make 9ball a ease for any of them, the break being one of those things, also being a slop allowed game and a 9 on the snap possible. There are so many variables IMHO, I'm by no means saying anything about the specific match or Filler and his run, just putting my two sense in of where I feel pro 9 ball has gone.
 
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sudocrushms said:
I think we can all agree that would be damn fun to watch. Back to back 9-packs then sudden death? That would be NUTS.
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3 cushion billiards lets each player take an inning to score as much as he can from the break shot without missing and they trade innings until one does better than the other.

Doesn't happen often but it is a helluva show when it does happen.
 
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HueblerHustler7 said:
Races need to be longer and 9 ball should be changed to a modified rules 9ball game, similar to 10 ball. Or they should be playing 10ball, at this caliber of play people have perfected so many things that make 9ball a ease for any of them, the the 10break being one of those things, also being a slop allowed game and a 9 on the snap possible. There are so many variables IMHO, I'm by no means saying anything about the specific match or Filler and his run, just putting my two sense in of where I feel pro 9 ball has gone.
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The 10b break has been figured out too, sorry.

They need to use the whole rack and whoever makes the final ball (irrespective of value) gets a point and breaks the next rack...play to a set amount of points.

And ball in hand for incoming player after any miss. Shoot for the holes, boys.
 
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Breaking news [pun intended]. Windows Open's "Derby City Recap Show" dropped with Molina Mike and Mike Panozzo, and there was a brief back-and-forth about Joshua Filler's consecutive break-and-runs:

MOLINA MIKE: I hate this notion that because it's Josh that it's low-hanging fruit to talk shit about him. You know what I mean? And it really is with some of the guys.

MIKE PANOZZO: If it's Josh, if there's one–if there's one person who doesn't have to cheat to run eight racks, it's Josh, you know.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, but he was doing something different. You could obviously tell that.

I mean, he was doing it quickly, but he was doing something different. You know, but he just figured it out before anybody else did.

But I guarantee you, had anybody else done it, had anybody else cracked that code, they would have just as well been doing that same thing. And there's like this—there's like this culture with, you know—but what's the saying, Mike? There's no—there's no honor amongst thieves, you know, because—

MIKE PANOZZO: Right.

MOLINA MIKE: —people have been gapping the balls for forever, right? You'll see that every time they're racking one pocket, trying to get that wing ball to not fly out. You'll see it in 10-ball for them to try to put the slightest gap behind the back two balls. You'll see it in 9-ball whenever they're manipulating the template.

And like I mentioned online, Americans more than anyone play this format where you're racking with the template yourself, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: So, like, they ought to know more than anybody how to get it done. And you'll see that constantly whenever you're playing these regional events. You know, guys are there rubbing the balls, and they're doing this number here. They're doing it for a reason, Mike.

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah. Well, here's an interesting—while we were talking—I messaged Shane.

MOLINA MIKE: You messaged Shane? Okay. What did Shane say?

MIKE PANOZZO: I just asked him, you know, in your opinion, was Josh gapping the rack playing you? I know you were checking the rack out. Was he doing anything funny? He said, "No, it was strictly the case of the old break box."

MOLINA MIKE: Is that what he said?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yep.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, then that kind of puts it to rest right there because he had—he had front-row seats to what Josh was doing.

MIKE PANOZZO: Standing there looking at the rack. So yeah, he said it was—

MOLINA MIKE: He did it Rack 1, and he did it—I want to say at the end of the match as well. Am I wrong?

MIKE PANOZZO: Could be something like that. So yeah, it was strictly a matter of him of, you know, not having to break from the box, which I think a lot of players didn't know going into. At least Alex didn't know, and so, you know, yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, that's an interesting point of view. If Shane said that to you—and I'm betting that he did, because that changes the whole perspective there, Mike, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

SOURCE:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=631541716032788
 
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JAM said:
Breaking news [pun intended]. Windows Open's "Derby City Recap Show" dropped with Molina Mike and Mike Panozzo, and there was a brief back-and-forth about Joshua Filler's consecutive break-and-runs:

MOLINA MIKE: I hate this notion that because it's Josh that it's low-hanging fruit to talk shit about him. You know what I mean? And it really is with some of the guys.

MIKE PANOZZO: If it's Josh, if there's one–if there's one person who doesn't have to cheat to run eight racks, it's Josh, you know.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, but he was doing something different. You could obviously tell that.

I mean, he was doing it quickly, but he was doing something different. You know, but he just figured it out before anybody else did.

But I guarantee you, had anybody else done it, had anybody else cracked that code, they would have just as well been doing that same thing. And there's like this—there's like this culture with, you know—but what's the saying, Mike? There's no—there's no honor amongst thieves, you know, because—

MIKE PANOZZO: Right.

MOLINA MIKE: —people have been gapping the balls for forever, right? You'll see that every time they're racking one pocket, trying to get that wing ball to not fly out. You'll see it in 10-ball for them to try to put the slightest gap behind the back two balls. You'll see it in 9-ball whenever they're manipulating the template.

And like I mentioned online, Americans more than anyone play this format where you're racking with the template yourself, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: So, like, they ought to know more than anybody how to get it done. And you'll see that constantly whenever you're playing these regional events. You know, guys are there rubbing the balls, and they're doing this number here. They're doing it for a reason, Mike.

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah. Well, here's an interesting—while we were talking—I messaged Shane.

MOLINA MIKE: You messaged Shane? Okay. What did Shane say?

MIKE PANOZZO: I just asked him, you know, in your opinion, was Josh gapping the rack playing you? I know you were checking the rack out. Was he doing anything funny? He said, "No, it was strictly the case of the old break box."

MOLINA MIKE: Is that what he said?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yep.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, then that kind of puts it to rest right there because he had—he had front-row seats to what Josh was doing.

MIKE PANOZZO: Standing there looking at the rack. So yeah, he said it was—

MOLINA MIKE: He did it Rack 1, and he did it—I want to say at the end of the match as well. Am I wrong?

MIKE PANOZZO: Could be something like that. So yeah, it was strictly a matter of him of, you know, not having to break from the box, which I think a lot of players didn't know going into. At least Alex didn't know, and so, you know, yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, that's an interesting point of view. If Shane said that to you—and I'm betting that he did, because that changes the whole perspective there, Mike, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.
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Let's throw out Molina Mike's conspiracy theory out with last night's garbage. Using the "everyone fiddles with the rack" argument here is just plain disrespectful to Filler, already one of the greatest players of all time. As is so often noted on this forum, however, the haters will hate. At least Panozzo researched the matter before subscribing to this fiction.

SVBs view is the same as most of us. Josh was giving himself the same rack everyone else was getting, but Josh figured it out better. As I noted in my post, it's fair to argue that the conditions were too easy for those accustomed to a tighter break box and tighter pockets, but the playing field was fair, and sure enough, the guy who won the DCC 9ball last year won this year. Nobody has ever found a field, a set of playing conditions or a tournament format where Filler can't beat them all.

The real issue here is that the Derby City 9ball is a 500-player event, and these conditions are appropriate for over 90% of them. As we saw, the time they went tighter, the Derby City 9ball finished at about 10:00 AM the day after it was meant to end, so going with tighter pockets is not an option.
 
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To start. Josh played great. Operated within the rules. And did nothing wrong.

Here’s the issue. Under certain break formats, you can make the wing ball, control the 1 so it bounces short of the side pocket and rolls gently in front of corner pocket, and control the cueball so it Z bounces up table to sit in front of the 1-ball for a layup of a start to the rack.
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It’s not about whether someone is running out the set. Nobody is perfect, some weird kisses come up or you hit it bad. It’s about the likelihood of the person winning the set being the person that can execute this specific outcome the most number of times. When the elite pros play so good that that is how match outcomes are determined by, pool becomes a less interesting sport.
 
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MattPoland said:
To start. Josh played great. Operated within the rules. And did nothing wrong.

Here’s the issue. Under certain break formats, you can make the wing ball, control the 1 so it bounces short of the side pocket and rolls gently in front of corner pocket, and control the cueball so it Z bounces up table to sit in front of the 1-ball for a layup of a start to the rack.
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It’s not about whether someone is running out the set. Nobody is perfect, some weird kisses come up or you hit it bad. It’s about the likelihood of the person winning the set being the person that can execute this specific outcome the most number of times. When the elite pros play so good that that is how match outcomes are determined by, pool becomes a less interesting sport.
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And for further illustration you can see this 2 minute supercut of all of Josh’s breaks against Alex (round 11) and see this is what he’s striving for on each one. At the front half of the match it doesn’t exactly work out but he’s left an aggressive option anyway. At the back half of the match he really dials it in a repeats it much more.

 
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In conclusion. 9-ball has historically been a broken game and 10-ball was the answer. Opponent rack. Rack your own. Ref rack. Template rack. 1 on the spot. 9 on the spot. Break box. 3-point Rule. Smaller break box. It’s been an evolution and Matchroom up until now has for the most part solved this issue simply with template rack, 9 on the spot and a small break box. We still see packages. We still see runouts. But we ultimately see a margin more pushouts, jumps, kicks and safeties. More pool being played. And none of the breaks are cookie cutter attempts to create precisely the same “layup layout” over and over again

And ironically 10-ball has become the broken game. Because with a template rack the pros are breaking so good they are again making balls, controlling the 1 and controlling the cueball for repeatable “layup layouts”. The only known solution to that is hand racking which is reasonable but you do get some refs slug racking at an uncomfortable occurrence. Enough that 10-ball is comparatively broken compared to MR 9-ball.
 
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