Seeking Input: Archer ‘93 vs. Today

Shane has won 6 times on 10 foot tables including one pocket. So I don’t think he’d have all that much difficulty Adjusting.
The one year that the Derby City 14.1 event was played on the ten-footer, after five days of qualifying, and SVB was part of those qualifying attempts, there was just one run of over 100, and it was by a snooker player named Pettman. So, yes, every pool player had a hard time adjusting to the 10-footer for 14.1. Contrastingly, Greenleaf ran 100s on the 10-footer like they were nothing in his day, and it was harder before Simonis cloth became the norm.

I wonder if Greenleaf, whose competitive days ended in the late 1940s, ever played even one rack of one pocket in his life. The game was only invented in the 1930s and few played it before the 1950s.
 
The one year that the Derby City 14.1 event was played on the ten-footer, after five days of qualifying, and SVB was part of those qualifying attempts, there was just one run of over 100, and it was by a snooker player named Pettman. So, yes, every pool player had a hard time adjusting to the 10-footer for 14.1. Contrastingly, Greenleaf ran 100s on the 10-footer like they were nothing in his day, and it was harder before Simonis cloth became the norm.

I wonder if Greenleaf, whose competitive days ended in the late 1940s, ever played even one rack of one pocket in his life. The game was only invented in the 1930s and few played it before the 1950s.
Greenleaf may not have played 1 pocket 🤷‍♂️
 
Greenleaf may not have played 1 pocket 🤷‍♂️
You've made a lot of good points in our debate. In the end, it's all speculation, but even though it's near impossible, it is still fun to try to think across the eras of pool.

I think we agree that all those cited in our debate are legendary greats but putting them in order is a tall order indeed.

There is even room for debate on whether a player should be measured across all of pool's disciplines or against the primary discipline of their day. It's another tricky matter.
 
You've made a lot of good points in our debate. In the end, it's all speculation, but even though it's near impossible, it is still fun to try to think across the eras of pool.

I think we agree that all those cited in our debate are legendary greats but putting them in order is a tall order indeed.

There is even room for debate on whether a player should be measured across all of pool's disciplines or against the primary discipline of their day. It's another tricky matter.
It’s definitely fun to debate and share opinions.
 
Yeah, I find those games occasionally. The Pinoys are where we were at fifty or seventy-five years ago. Fierce battles with a rail full of people watching. They may be playing for low stakes but the stakes may be big to them. There was about a six month period in my life when my wheels were dead and I had just lost somebody close to me. I was at one of the lowest points in my life and didn't care enough to dig my way out. I had to walk a mile and a half to the nearest bar with a table to win enough to eat that day. If it was raining heavily, not uncommon in South Louisiana, I didn't eat that day. I usually hung on to enough for quarters on the table and a dollar beer back then to keep up the illusion I was there for the beer and not primarily for the pool. If not I would find a way to make a few dollars in the neighborhood. The first swallow of beer would hurt going down and I could feel the cold liquid all the way down to my empty stomach or further. Those three dollar games were important then! One of the few air barrels I ever fired was for three dollars.



The characters from yesteryear didn't always eat well or sleep comfortably. One reason today's players think the road is impossible is that they are chasing a lifestyle that only existed in tales. The old road players favored big cars. Fine road machines but the other reason for them was that they slept more comfortably than smaller vehicles. One reason I didn't hit the road with Danny Medina when he wanted me to was that he was driving a Malibu and I was driving a single seat pick-up. I was too tall to sleep fairly comfortably in the Malibu and the pick-up while I slept very well in it, only slept one!

A couple road tricks: The notell motels with doors to the parking lot for every room were handy. Cruise through and find a door that wasn't closed well. Was usually good for a few hours sleep in the bed that hadn't been used and a shower. Places that sold fast food and bakeries were usually dumping things just before closing. A fine time to score food, sometimes a lot of food, cheap!

The real life of a road player was boom and bust. I did it in a small way when I needed to pay bills. I would leave out usually needing a thousand or fifteen hundred back then, once in awhile I was just in the mood for a road trip. The road trips lasted until I had the money I needed. Usually a few days to a few weeks, once a few hours! On the road the first thing was to keep a gambling stake, then the vehicle ate, I was the bottom of the totem pole! I had a thirsty 454 under the hood which came in handy when I needed to get out of Dodge in a hurry. Fortunately my road trips were when gas was fifty cents to a dollar a gallon.

I was lucky to only have alcohol as a vice. I didn't smoke and didn't do any hard drugs. I didn't gamble at anything other than pool either. Sometimes the ponies when I was flush but purely for recreation. I would put twenty or forty in a front pocket and if I lost that betting was over. Let me actually come out ahead on the ponies long run, something few could say! I knew jockeys and trainers that lost every dime they had on the ponies, enough to keep me from thinking my little knowledge was enough long term.

There was an interview with Danny Medina in his later years. He acknowledged the road was a hard hard life and he was one of the best. The road players did start keeping books on the locals and swapping information which made things easier. Knowing they came with information, I didn't hesitate to dime them if a friend was involved. I did see how things were going first. I have seen the local playing way over their head sometimes and making a very nice score!

Gamblers are eternal optimists. Great to listen to or read the stories but many should begin, "Once upon a time ..." One bragged about never losing on here. A few weeks later he was posting a story about getting busted. Nobody won all the time.

Hu
Or even most of the time.
 
The one year that the Derby City 14.1 event was played on the ten-footer, after five days of qualifying, and SVB was part of those qualifying attempts, there was just one run of over 100, and it was by a snooker player named Pettman. So, yes, every pool player had a hard time adjusting to the 10-footer for 14.1. Contrastingly, Greenleaf ran 100s on the 10-footer like they were nothing in his day, and it was harder before Simonis cloth became the norm.

I wonder if Greenleaf, whose competitive days ended in the late 1940s, ever played even one rack of one pocket in his life. The game was only invented in the 1930s and few played it before the 1950s.
I don't recall my dad ever mentioning one pocket in the same breath.
 
Calling Filler a more refined version of Earl is reasonable in many ways. In fact, as far as how they approached the runouts, they played with a very similar style and philosophy. Because each had superhuman ball pocketing skills, neither had to prioritize getting super-close to the next object ball to complete the runouts with mind-blowing consistency.

Josh and Earl were more concerned with getting the angle needed for the next shot even if it meant being a few inches further away from the object ball. In this regard, Gorst, Parica, Souquet and Appleton probably all played position a little more aggressively than either, but their level of execution was not quite at the same level (well, maybe Fedor).

Relative to their contemporaries, I'd say Earl had a better break than Josh. Where Josh is more refined than Earl is in his defense, two-way shots and his downside management. His tactical excellence is often overlooked because of his offensive wizardry, but Josh is one of the game's best strategists. Hence, to me, Josh is a more complete player than Earl ever was.

The world champion player who made those comments knows of what they speak.
Filler playing defense is something to watch. The moment you think you have him hooked, he's got you worse. For those that hate the short sticks: he also has the best 2-rail kick and stick I've ever seen and he does it all the time.
 
Ralph was drunk most often times as not during his matches.

the single malt handcrafted small batch aged scotch whiskey available today is so much better than the rot gut cutty sark of the 1940’s that comparisons across decades are impossible and ludicrous
 
The one year that the Derby City 14.1 event was played on the ten-footer, after five days of qualifying, and SVB was part of those qualifying attempts, there was just one run of over 100, and it was by a snooker player named Pettman. So, yes, every pool player had a hard time adjusting to the 10-footer for 14.1. Contrastingly, Greenleaf ran 100s on the 10-footer like they were nothing in his day, and it was harder before Simonis cloth became the norm.

I wonder if Greenleaf, whose competitive days ended in the late 1940s, ever played even one rack of one pocket in his life. The game was only invented in the 1930s and few played it before the 1950s.
What was the pocket size on the Greenleaf-era 10 footers, versus the Big Foot table? I have to believe they were a little bit more generous.
 
What was the pocket size on the Greenleaf-era 10 footers, versus the Big Foot table? I have to believe they were a little bit more generous.

Actually most of the time they were tight, four inches. In 1923? Greenleaf almost doubled the world record on a ten foot table with four inch pockets, slow directional cloth, and probably piss poor climate control. Pockets grew larger to speed up play to please spectators. People would actually pay to watch pool and the big events would appear on the top of the sports page above baseball and other sports.

Hu
 
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Actually most of the time they were tight, four inches. In 1923 Greenleaf almost doubled the world record on a ten foot table with four inch pockets, slow directional cloth, and probably piss poor climate control. Pockets grew larger to speed up play to please spectators. People would actually pay to watch pool and the big events would appear on the top of the sports page above baseball and other sports.

Hu
I've read of the old square jawed pockets but not the dimensions. 4" kinda puts the marksman into it. Too bad Mosconi went with buckets.
 
I've read of the old square jawed pockets but not the dimensions. 4" kinda puts the marksman into it. Too bad Mosconi went with buckets.

I hung a question mark behind 1923. The rest seems solid.

When I got a little bored with pool I still gambled nightly but I did almost all of my tuning on a snooker table using a pool cue. It will definitely tighten up the eyeballs especially when I started trying to increase my high run banking on the snooker table.

If we all played on three or four inch pockets the dedicated players would get used to it but the date night players that are a big part of keeping the doors open at many halls would get tired of it in a hurry.

Edit: One more bit of information, Mosconi didn't go with buckets. His run started in an exhibition. His contract specified the exhibitions had to be on Brunswick tables. There was only one Brunswick in the room, the one he set the record on. I agree it was a shame it wasn't a bigger tighter table.

Hu
 
What was the pocket size on the Greenleaf-era 10 footers, versus the Big Foot table? I have to believe they were a little bit more generous.
Good question. I really don't know, but I suspect you are correct. Best guess is that the Bigfoot table is 4 1/2" and that the tables Greenleaf played on were 4 3/4" and occasionally tighter. Still, the Bigfoot table always has new cloth and rails and it's visibly clear that it doesn't play too tight, while in Greenleaf's era, they didn't get to play on new equipment. Hence, my sense is that worn 4 3/4" tables play as tight as new 4 1/2" tables.

The real problem on the old ten footers was the slow cloth.
 
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I hung a question mark behind 1923. The rest seems solid.

When I got a little bored with pool I still gambled nightly but I did almost all of my tuning on a snooker table using a pool cue. It will definitely tighten up the eyeballs especially when I started trying to increase my high run banking on the snooker table.

If we all played on three or four inch pockets the dedicated players would get used to it but the date night players that are a big part of keeping the doors open at many halls would get tired of it in a hurry.

Edit: One more bit of information, Mosconi didn't go with buckets. His run started in an exhibition. His contract specified the exhibitions had to be on Brunswick tables. There was only one Brunswick in the room, the one he set the record on. I agree it was a shame it wasn't a bigger tighter table.

Hu
Brunswick Icon that he was, he publicly recommended buckets.
 
Brunswick Icon that he was, he publicly recommended buckets.

I don't doubt it. Big tables and recreational players that only play maybe once a month or less are better suited to buckets. I played in a wonderful old hall under a fraternity at LSU BR. Ten foot tables but the best I can remember you could put two balls side by side in the corners at the points and still have generous daylight between them. These weren't Brunswicks and were the biggest pockets I remember playing on. I snuck in when I was fourteen and fifteen, so the huge pockets were kind to me!

Hu
 
i believe this to be true but we are going back so many decades that the nature of who and what is a spectator has changed dramatically

looking at old photos of 5x10 tables
the pockets always look small to me

Shooting on 5x10's they look small too!(grin)

I think five by tens are the perfect size to play pool or snooker on. A six by twelve makes me start thinking I am in a track meet and the crutch has to come into play too much. I like nines and have to admit I play my best pool on a seven foot Diamond now. However I play on them so little I get the big table bounce playing them. Playing on them just a little seven footers feel like an arcade game.

Hu
 
Hopefully those in line to be players see the value of ingrained precision. Guys like Filler and Gorst make it look like child's play but they are in fact armed to the teeth and win by brute headroom. :ROFLMAO:
They might be special now but there's nothing impossible about their abilities. Put the perspiration into the preparation.
 
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