How is this a Joss?
- Thread starter Chopdoc
- Start date
Yep the J3 cue is the one
vintagecollectibles831
Active member
Like a Collaboration. Like with the new Viking cues, designed, and built to Ariel Carmeli specs. They look like a Carmeli, and are built to his specs, with the same joint Pin that he uses, and his AC logo, but they are made by Viking.
There are so many collaborations among cue makers that would make people's heads spin. I've said it above, but the combination of Joss, Jim Rempe, Sigel, Varner, and Helmstetter did more cues for each other than most would comprehend. You just have to have been around a long time and have seen a lot of them.
Agreed.
OMG!!! Nice Axe!!!
Thank you.
I have occasionally reminded my wife that my relationship with that cue has been much longer than my relationship with her.
Yes, and their impact on the industry has been bigger than many suspect. Helmstetter is responsible for the foundation of an Asian cue manufacturing powerhouse that continues today. Joss has been involved in engineering and development through collaborations more than many people suspect, and that extends to Stroud and his shaft development and other works.
I believe it was Chris Tate that said it would be amazing, and difficult, to unravel all the relationships and sort out who made what under what names and where. This was in a discussion about Palmer, Adam, and Kaokao. From the way it sounded he looked into it some because of the Adam made Palmers and he found it all pretty convoluted. For example, people see the Pro versions of the Cobra and Mizerak cues that I have and say they had to have been made by Adam, at least the splices, because Kaokao only made crap. From everything I can find, that isn't true, in fact they collaborated with Adam and some Adam cues were made by them. They actually can and have made very nice cues at the level of quality people typically recognize from the better Adam cues.
It seems what we are talking about here with Joss, Falcon, Sigel, and Varner, only scratches the surface.
I have been looking into a brand that was/is being sold as made by a certain maker that I believe wasn't. In fact I believe they were made by Kaokao and imported. I haven't talked about it openly because I am betting some people at least will feel like they got their dick stepped on. I think others suspect or know it, but I haven't seen anybody openly putting it out there at all. But I have seen a picture of stacks of the cues in plastic sleeves in a shipping box that pretty clearly looks like it came from Taiwan.
There are brands that were made by several makers over the years. Biagio comes to mind. I recently saw someone insist that a certain brand was made by a certain maker. They were originally in the mid 1960's, but by the 1970's they were made by Adam. He knew the maker in the 60's and really just seems not to believe they were later made by Adam. I assure you, the maker and his two kids didn't make tens of thousands of cues in their garage, but this guy thought they did. Even when shown the later catalogs, he didn't believe it.
So, people will assign a maker or brand identity with the best they can it seems. If they are a flipper they race through the internet and find a reference associating the cue they are selling with the best name they can. If they own it, inherit it, or whatever, they seem to do the same. I saw pics of a beautifully restored cue that a guy insisted was made by a US cue maker that sold it with their name on it. It was an Asian import and he dumped a bunch of money in restoring it. No way he would consider it was made in Taiwan, but it was. Even people identifying old cues will say those points or inlays look too good, so-and-so made it himself, or those points or inlays don't look good enough, it was made in Taiwan...and they are wrong on both accounts.
To me it's fun, and interesting. That's how and why I went down the rabbit hole on the Biagio, Mizerak, Cobra cues, and others. Along the way, I found a few gems, too, which is a bonus.
no, all in canada.
Rempe had a short run pimping those ADAM built cues but he was with Meucci the longest by far.
He started that effort with Joss. So there were a few made. But Joss could not meet the volume he wanted, so he went on to find a higher volume capable manufacturer. Obviously, Adam is a legendary monster at high volume with good quality. Meucci Originals? People still debate the matter of Meucci quality, I will not comment on that except to say it is common to see them falling apart from age alone.
I don't remember how many were made by Joss but I think I have that information and some history about it somewhere in my folders. I think Jayman has information on that.
For now, here is an example:
The older Meucci's(i'm saying pre logo change) were well made. I know more than a few people that still have/use them with zero issues. I had a ADAM Rempe and it was ok but compared to say a Josswest of the same vintage there was/is no comparison. I'd forgotten about that short run of Joss/Rempe's. Those gotta worth some coin. Got one?He started that effort with Joss. So there were a few made. But Joss could not meet the volume he wanted, so he went on to find a higher volume capable manufacturer. Obviously, Adam is a legendary monster at high volume with good quality. Meucci Originals? People still debate the matter of Meucci quality, I will not comment on that except to say it is common to see them falling apart from age alone.
I don't remember how many were made by Joss but I think I have that information and some history about it somewhere in my folders. I think Jayman has information on that.
For now, here is an example:
I don't think a JossWest is a fair comparison anyway.
As for Meucci, I get it. That's why I don't want to get into it. The single Meucci Orininal I have (early with brass pin) continues to degrade with time. The cracks in the plastics continue to worsen, in spite of the fact I never play it. It's not the build quality, it's the materials, and the materials didn't change when they changed their logo.
I do not have a Joss Rempe cue. I haven't found a good deal on one yet. I just don't see so much value in the branding. It's a Joss, which is not rare in general. I would like an example of one anyway.
For example I just bought a cue made by Viking but different branding. Similar Viking branded cues go for double what I paid, but the cue I got is much more rare. I thought that was a great deal. It is now my example of a certain catalog.
The Joss Rempe cues are cool. I'll continue to wait for a good deal (cheap) to grab one.
I believe I have a cue that was made around the same time as yours. Do you know when yours was made?
Mine has the same block JOSS, same veneers. The point and sleeve wood is Macassar ebony.
Here are some crappy pics
Yours is earlier. Mine might be a Diamind catalog cue, but some have said mid to late 70s. On the market, Yours is the hotter item for sure. But my forearm wood is amazing. That's why I got a pic in sunlight. No stain. Just wood.
Yours is mid to late 70s, earlier than Chopdoc's. If you bought it used, the leather wrap could be a replacement wrap, as they generally did not do leather wraps in the 60s or 70s. If original, this would be a pretty unusual Joss with the leather wrap.
All the best,
WW
I just purchased one identical to the second from the right. The owner had that cue with two original shafts, mint, ivory ferrules, and original Nick Varner case. I love it!
I just purchased a New Old Stock Nick Varner World Champion Falcon (made in Canada) that Nick V had stashed away and recently wholesaled to Cue and Cushion in STL. The quality is amazing. It's like brand new - and has become my new playing cue. I absolutely love it.