1990s 9-ball McCready vs. Paez

[JAM]

Honestly -- we may be over complicating things. I love these old matches as much as anybody, but a large part of what makes them interesting is probably the fact that they just aren't as good as today's players. This makes the racks more interesting. Couple that with the more "informal"commentary, and the pool is just more relatable to us players.

The players and the game were destined for a more professional product. Nothing wrong with enjoying the old and the new.

I kind of wish this thread was not a match that Keith McCready played in, because my comment would hold more weight.

I vehemently disagree that players from days gone by were not as good as today's players, and here's why. The equipment is extremely different, to include the cloth. Even the cue balls are different as well as the balls themselves. And then let's not forget about jump and break cues of today, to include the variety of tips. What about the multiplicity of chalk that is available today? I'm not sure what you call those black shafts, but they weren't around in the '80s and '90s. They were all wood, as I recall. Even the rules were different in some venues back in what I call pool's "golden years." Have you ever seen Willie Mosconi or Cowboy Jimmy Moore jump a ball? Nobody jumped balls. Today some players from pool's golden years who are still alive believe jumping balls ruins a good safety play, and the elimination of two-shot/push-out rules to today's rules transformed the game of 9-ball into more of a luck game.

I do not believe Joshua Filler of today would have barbecued, say, Mike Sigel in 1985, and I think if Mike Sigel was at the speed he was at in 1985 and played on today's equipment with today's hardware against Joshua Filler, Filler might not like it. To compare the two eras of players which played on different equipment and used different hardware and under different rules is not statistically significant if you take into account all the factors.

To think that it's only the new breed of pool player of today lives to win tournaments and stays ready and trains, so they are better able to win, is absolute B.S. Sigel, Varner, Archer Strickland, Balukas, Hall, Mizerak, Murphy, Lassiter, Moore, Hopkins, Rempe, and Balsis—gosh, we had so MANY MORE American pro-caliber players back then—did stay ready and train for competition. Make no mistake about it. I've seen Earl break balls over and over again, hundreds of times, before a tournament to ensure his break is working, and on the offs, all these players were staying in stroke, staying ready for every single tournament.

As far as the talk about players being "drunk and doing drugs,’" the truth is, the only player drinking beer during a match was Keith. The rest were drinking water. A lot of scallywags like to bash players on social media, and maybe that’s entertainment for some. The Debbie Downers and Negative Nellies enjoy it, hiding behind a made-up forum name, preserving their real identity.

This is actually my all-time favorite match of Keith's because of hill-hill game at the end. Yes, it is fun to listen to the commentary and watch the players from yesteryear. My favorite commentators from this era, in no specific order, were Jerry Forsyth, Sid Wadell, Jimmy Wych, Grady Mathews, Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, and Buddy Hall. I haven't heard Kim Davenport commentating a lot, but in this match, I thought he was superb.

One of my favorite snippets:

BUDDY: And the tension builds. What do we do on the four ball?
KIM: Well, he can't spin it, though. He just got to roll the ball.
BUDDY: He's gotta roll it. He's got—he might spin it. He might try to spin it.
KIM: Yeah, but if he spins it, he can't hold no rock nowhere.
BUDDY: Well, if he spins it, he might try to spin it right into the five ball. He might try to spin snow right into the five.
KIM: Yeah, I don't like that. I like rolling it. If I'm gonna shoot it, I'm gonna roll it.
BUDDY: I like hitting the center ball.

 

[BasementDweller]

Pool players have longer careers than most other athletes, so by necessity the incoming players must be as good as the current best players if they want to make a living. If they want to beat - say a 35 year old Darren Appleton they have to be better than him. So SVB comes along with a much better break and reels in Appleton. The next group comes along and reels in SVB. However, he hasn't gone down without a fight as he's continued to improve other areas of his game in order to stay near the top.

Every great player doesn't just age out, they get caught up to and then surpassed. That's just the way of the world. Pool is not exempt from this. If you pay close attention you can see it happening right before your eyes.

 

[JPB2]

how much of this shot was intentional?

For example, for pro like him, is he 50% confident on the pot and 100% on the safe if he missed?

I am 100% I wouldn't have seen this shot.

I think Keith played some golf. Probably hit that shot on the infamous table at Hard Times a few times.

 

[pt109]

I think Keith played some golf. Probably hit that shot on the infamous table at Hard Times a few times.

It was a fluke….but he hit it good for the safety …..the next shot he hit bad….it would’ve looked like a failed bank on today’s tables.

Entertainment wise, matches like this are worth paying triple to today’s matches.

 

[maha]

that isnt a very hard shot and the luck in was great for him. and if you play a lot and are a thinking player you see those shots.
most don't as all they see is how can i make the ball. one pocket players pick up on it better.

the safe shot is two stages, hitting the object ball where you want and the cue ball where you want. almost all players even most pros hit their longer safe shots too softly as its a natural thing to do. as you are afraid of selling out and that's just what happens.

when you shoot a long safe on the longer(harder) side you have much more room for it to work out.

 

[hello]

Keith must have had the weirdest stance ever...

 

[Straightpool_99]

Back in the good old days pool was a treat to watch. It just isn't the same nowadays.

The level of play has increased but the entertainment value hasn't.

 

[Straightpool_99]

If Keith tried to do this, it was freakin phenomenal! Having watched him play a bit on Accu-Stats, I wouldn't rule it out:

 

[Cord]

Back in the good old days pool was a treat to watch. It just isn't the same nowadays.

The level of play has increased but the entertainment value hasn't.

Thankfully, so has image technology. As entertaining as the players are, the potato vid quality is a stark contrast to even amateur streams today.

 

[hello]

how much of this shot was intentional?

For example, for pro like him, is he 50% confident on the pot and 100% on the safe if he missed?

I am 100% I wouldn't have seen this shot.

I'd say 0 %.

He says in the interview too he got lucky, if he played or even took into consideration the ball would go, he'd probably said so...

 

[hello]

Keith put in a great performance in the color of money, I still watch his scenes from time to time.

I think he has serious acting talent.

 

[sjm]

Morro may have had the best masse stroke I have ever seen. There was a masse trick shot competition held in conjunction with a pro event circa 1998 at the Riviera in Las Vegas and Morro won it quite easily.

Modern players may not realize that before the advent of the jump cue, the masse shot was more important.

 

[patmoran]

I kind of wish this thread was not a match that Keith McCready played in, because my comment would hold more weight.

I vehemently disagree that players from days gone by were not as good as today's players, and here's why. The equipment is extremely different, to include the cloth. Even the cue balls are different as well as the balls themselves. And then let's not forget about jump and break cues of today, to include the variety of tips. What about the multiplicity of chalk that is available today? I'm not sure what you call those black shafts, but they weren't around in the '80s and '90s. They were all wood, as I recall. Even the rules were different in some venues back in what I call pool's "golden years." Have you ever seen Willie Mosconi or Cowboy Jimmy Moore jump a ball? Nobody jumped balls. Today some players from pool's golden years who are still alive believe jumping balls ruins a good safety play, and the elimination of two-shot/push-out rules to today's rules transformed the game of 9-ball into more of a luck game.

I do not believe Joshua Filler of today would have barbecued, say, Mike Sigel in 1985, and I think if Mike Sigel was at the speed he was at in 1985 and played on today's equipment with today's hardware against Joshua Filler, Filler might not like it. To compare the two eras of players which played on different equipment and used different hardware and under different rules is not statistically significant if you take into account all the factors.

To think that it's only the new breed of pool player of today lives to win tournaments and stays ready and trains, so they are better able to win, is absolute B.S. Sigel, Varner, Archer Strickland, Balukas, Hall, Mizerak, Murphy, Lassiter, Moore, Hopkins, Rempe, and Balsis—gosh, we had so MANY MORE American pro-caliber players back then—did stay ready and train for competition. Make no mistake about it. I've seen Earl break balls over and over again, hundreds of times, before a tournament to ensure his break is working, and on the offs, all these players were staying in stroke, staying ready for every single tournament.

As far as the talk about players being "drunk and doing drugs,’" the truth is, the only player drinking beer during a match was Keith. The rest were drinking water. A lot of scallywags like to bash players on social media, and maybe that’s entertainment for some. The Debbie Downers and Negative Nellies enjoy it, hiding behind a made-up forum name, preserving their real identity.

This is actually my all-time favorite match of Keith's because of hill-hill game at the end. Yes, it is fun to listen to the commentary and watch the players from yesteryear. My favorite commentators from this era, in no specific order, were Jerry Forsyth, Sid Wadell, Jimmy Wych, Grady Mathews, Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, and Buddy Hall. I haven't heard Kim Davenport commentating a lot, but in this match, I thought he was superb.

One of my favorite snippets:

BUDDY: And the tension builds. What do we do on the four ball?
KIM: Well, he can't spin it, though. He just got to roll the ball.
BUDDY: He's gotta roll it. He's got—he might spin it. He might try to spin it.
KIM: Yeah, but if he spins it, he can't hold no rock nowhere.
BUDDY: Well, if he spins it, he might try to spin it right into the five ball. He might try to spin snow right into the five.
KIM: Yeah, I don't like that. I like rolling it. If I'm gonna shoot it, I'm gonna roll it.
BUDDY: I like hitting the center ball.

Like all sports the game evolves over time as players learn from their predecessors

 

[patmoran]

Pool players have longer careers than most other athletes, so by necessity the incoming players must be as good as the current best players if they want to make a living. If they want to beat - say a 35 year old Darren Appleton they have to be better than him. So SVB comes along with a much better break and reels in Appleton. The next group comes along and reels in SVB. However, he hasn't gone down without a fight as he's continued to improve other areas of his game in order to stay near the top.

Every great player doesn't just age out, they get caught up to and then surpassed. That's just the way of the world. Pool is not exempt from this. If you pay close attention you can see it happening right before your eyes.

 

[JAM]

Like all sports the game evolves over time as players learn from their predecessors

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

The jump cue changed the game, and when jumping balls became the norm in 9-ball, the skill for jumping balls came forth. I had not realized until sjm mentioned it how important the masse is in one's arsenal of shots. I do think Fedor is one of the best jump-ball artists on the planet along with Joshua Filler and Sky Woodward.

As a newbie snooker fan, I am curious why jumping balls is not happening in snooker, but I have seen some brilliant masse shots on the green baize of a snooker table.

After Joe Tucker's "Racking Secrets" book came out, break techniques expanded. Today, in my opinion, it's 50 percent of the game in 9 ball. One can make balls and make shots galore, but if one can't make balls on the break and come with packages, it will give the opponent a chance to jump ahead each and every time. Keith McCready's record for running a package is 21 games in a row, if memory serves me right, but it was on different equipment than today's pristine pool hardware with its fast Simonis cloth. The ability to play on all equipment and play all pocket billiard games is also a talent that some one-trick ponies of today do not have, but it was a talent that players from yesteryear in USA from pool's golden era had to conquer if they wanted to win, whether as a tournament soldier or a road warrior.

Hardware evolved and changed the game from what it used to be, and with it came the ability to break better, jump balls better, and run packages. Is the pro player in 2025 better than, say, the pro player from 1985? It's not a good comparison because of the evolution of the hardware and rules.

9-ball originated in USA, surfacing in the 1920s. It was/is an American pocket billiards game. While it is now played worldwide, its historical roots and popularization are distinctly American. The player roster of 1990 and prior at the U.S. Open consisted of majority Americans, but 9-ball fever soon spread on a global scale. Today the player roster consists of many, many, many players from around the world, and Americans are in the minority in most international events. And, as I've stated numerous times previously in the last 20-plus years on this forum, the existing lot of American professional players continues to dwindle while the existing lot of professional players from around the worldwide is growing and growing and growing.

My favorite Keith photo. This was Keith in his prime, and there was a lot more American competition in USA back then than there is today. While social and recreational pool is thriving and growing day by day in USA, American professional pool is circling the drain.

 

[Iwishiwasrich]

^^^^ whoever was in the chair when Keith was at the table with that locked in look had to know that they were in trouble.

 

[sjm]

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

The jump cue changed the game, and when jumping balls became the norm in 9-ball, the skill for jumping balls came forth. I had not realized until sjm mentioned it how important the masse is in one's arsenal of shots. I do think Fedor is one of the best jump-ball artists on the planet along with Joshua Filler and Sky Woodward.

As a newbie snooker fan, I am curious why jumping balls is not happening in snooker, but I have seen some brilliant masse shots on the green baize of a snooker table.

After Joe Tucker's "Racking Secrets" book came out, break techniques expanded. Today, in my opinion, it's 50 percent of the game in 9 ball. One can make balls and make shots galore, but if one can't make balls on the break and come with packages, it will give the opponent a chance to jump ahead each and every time. Keith McCready's record for running a package is 21 games in a row, if memory serves me right, but it was on different equipment than today's pristine pool hardware with its fast Simonis cloth. The ability to play on all equipment and play all pocket billiard games is also a talent that some one-trick ponies of today do not have, but it was a talent that players from yesteryear in USA from pool's golden era had to conquer if they wanted to win, whether as a tournament soldier or a road warrior.

Hardware evolved and changed the game from what it used to be, and with it came the ability to break better, jump balls better, and run packages. Is the pro player in 2025 better than, say, the pro player from 1985? It's not a good comparison because of the evolution of the hardware and rules.

Great post. They played a different game back then.

While the skills of the players, especially in the area of stroke fundamentals, have skyrocketed (in fact, the level has risen dramatically in the last ten years alone), it is not fair to compare the players of Sigel's era to those of today. Most importantly, the instruction resources today are much greater than they were back then, giving today's crop an advantage never enjoyed by the players of the 1980s. every one of whom I saw play live.

In chess, the grandmasters always honed their skills by studying the matches of the past greats. Pool players in 1985 did not have this luxury. In 1985, there was no Accu-stats and were no matches on YouTube, so players could not yet learn by studying the great matches of the past. Sometimes, I think we forget how much easier these resources (alongside written learning materials, books, and other online resources) have made learning game theory for the current generation.

Among my favorite sayings is that "greatness is measured in titles and especially in major titles." It is the reason that I agree that a Sigel must stand alongside the greats of any era. The question is not whether Mike's skills would have translated to today's game, or whether Filler's skills would have translated to the game of yesteryear, for it does not really matter. Each has worked wonders with the resources available to him.

Mike's resume of titles tells me all I need to know. In my opinion, Mike is the only player that can claim to have been one of the five best ever straight pool players and one of the five best ever nine ball players. Those who didn't watch him overlook this, but Mike's in the conversation with Efren for being the best pool player of the last 50 years.

Both Josh and Fedor have a chance to eclipse the tournament credentials of Sigel, but they haven't done it yet. We, the fans, are sure to enjoy seeing how it plays out.

 

[patmoran]

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

The jump cue changed the game, and when jumping balls became the norm in 9-ball, the skill for jumping balls came forth. I had not realized until sjm mentioned it how important the masse is in one's arsenal of shots. I do think Fedor is one of the best jump-ball artists on the planet along with Joshua Filler and Sky Woodward.

As a newbie snooker fan, I am curious why jumping balls is not happening in snooker, but I have seen some brilliant masse shots on the green baize of a snooker table.

After Joe Tucker's "Racking Secrets" book came out, break techniques expanded. Today, in my opinion, it's 50 percent of the game in 9 ball. One can make balls and make shots galore, but if one can't make balls on the break and come with packages, it will give the opponent a chance to jump ahead each and every time. Keith McCready's record for running a package is 21 games in a row, if memory serves me right, but it was on different equipment than today's pristine pool hardware with its fast Simonis cloth. The ability to play on all equipment and play all pocket billiard games is also a talent that some one-trick ponies of today do not have, but it was a talent that players from yesteryear in USA from pool's golden era had to conquer if they wanted to win, whether as a tournament soldier or a road warrior.

Hardware evolved and changed the game from what it used to be, and with it came the ability to break better, jump balls better, and run packages. Is the pro player in 2025 better than, say, the pro player from 1985? It's not a good comparison because of the evolution of the hardware and rules.

9-ball originated in USA, surfacing in the 1920s. It was/is an American pocket billiards game. While it is now played worldwide, its historical roots and popularization are distinctly American. The player roster of 1990 and prior at the U.S. Open consisted of majority Americans, but 9-ball fever soon spread on a global scale. Today the player roster consists of many, many, many players from around the world, and Americans are in the minority in most international events. And, as I've stated numerous times previously in the last 20-plus years on this forum, the existing lot of American professional players continues to dwindle while the existing lot of professional players from around the worldwide is growing and growing and growing.

My favorite Keith photo. This was Keith in his prime, and there was a lot more American competition in USA back then than there is today. While social and recreational pool is thriving and growing day by day in USA, American professional pool is circling the drain.

View attachment 849771

I love the fact pool has become international as has the NBA and MLB
and can't imagine watching only Americans play pool again or in the NBA and MLB. It has broughtlevel of play has gone up

 

[patmoran]

I kind of wish this thread was not a match that Keith McCready played in, because my comment would hold more weight.

I vehemently disagree that players from days gone by were not as good as today's players, and here's why. The equipment is extremely different, to include the cloth. Even the cue balls are different as well as the balls themselves. And then let's not forget about jump and break cues of today, to include the variety of tips. What about the multiplicity of chalk that is available today? I'm not sure what you call those black shafts, but they weren't around in the '80s and '90s. They were all wood, as I recall. Even the rules were different in some venues back in what I call pool's "golden years." Have you ever seen Willie Mosconi or Cowboy Jimmy Moore jump a ball? Nobody jumped balls. Today some players from pool's golden years who are still alive believe jumping balls ruins a good safety play, and the elimination of two-shot/push-out rules to today's rules transformed the game of 9-ball into more of a luck game.

I do not believe Joshua Filler of today would have barbecued, say, Mike Sigel in 1985, and I think if Mike Sigel was at the speed he was at in 1985 and played on today's equipment with today's hardware against Joshua Filler, Filler might not like it. To compare the two eras of players which played on different equipment and used different hardware and under different rules is not statistically significant if you take into account all the factors.

To think that it's only the new breed of pool player of today lives to win tournaments and stays ready and trains, so they are better able to win, is absolute B.S. Sigel, Varner, Archer Strickland, Balukas, Hall, Mizerak, Murphy, Lassiter, Moore, Hopkins, Rempe, and Balsis—gosh, we had so MANY MORE American pro-caliber players back then—did stay ready and train for competition. Make no mistake about it. I've seen Earl break balls over and over again, hundreds of times, before a tournament to ensure his break is working, and on the offs, all these players were staying in stroke, staying ready for every single tournament.

As far as the talk about players being "drunk and doing drugs,’" the truth is, the only player drinking beer during a match was Keith. The rest were drinking water. A lot of scallywags like to bash players on social media, and maybe that’s entertainment for some. The Debbie Downers and Negative Nellies enjoy it, hiding behind a made-up forum name, preserving their real identity.

This is actually my all-time favorite match of Keith's because of hill-hill game at the end. Yes, it is fun to listen to the commentary and watch the players from yesteryear. My favorite commentators from this era, in no specific order, were Jerry Forsyth, Sid Wadell, Jimmy Wych, Grady Mathews, Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, and Buddy Hall. I haven't heard Kim Davenport commentating a lot, but in this match, I thought he was superb.

One of my favorite snippets:

BUDDY: And the tension builds. What do we do on the four ball?
KIM: Well, he can't spin it, though. He just got to roll the ball.
BUDDY: He's gotta roll it. He's got—he might spin it. He might try to spin it.
KIM: Yeah, but if he spins it, he can't hold no rock nowhere.
BUDDY: Well, if he spins it, he might try to spin it right into the five ball. He might try to spin snow right into the five.
KIM: Yeah, I don't like that. I like rolling it. If I'm gonna shoot it, I'm gonna roll it.
BUDDY: I like hitting the center ball.

I kind of wish this thread was not a match that Keith McCready played in, because my comment would hold more weight.

I vehemently disagree that players from days gone by were not as good as today's players, and here's why. The equipment is extremely different, to include the cloth. Even the cue balls are different as well as the balls themselves. And then let's not forget about jump and break cues of today, to include the variety of tips. What about the multiplicity of chalk that is available today? I'm not sure what you call those black shafts, but they weren't around in the '80s and '90s. They were all wood, as I recall. Even the rules were different in some venues back in what I call pool's "golden years." Have you ever seen Willie Mosconi or Cowboy Jimmy Moore jump a ball? Nobody jumped balls. Today some players from pool's golden years who are still alive believe jumping balls ruins a good safety play, and the elimination of two-shot/push-out rules to today's rules transformed the game of 9-ball into more of a luck game.

I do not believe Joshua Filler of today would have barbecued, say, Mike Sigel in 1985, and I think if Mike Sigel was at the speed he was at in 1985 and played on today's equipment with today's hardware against Joshua Filler, Filler might not like it. To compare the two eras of players which played on different equipment and used different hardware and under different rules is not statistically significant if you take into account all the factors.

To think that it's only the new breed of pool player of today lives to win tournaments and stays ready and trains, so they are better able to win, is absolute B.S. Sigel, Varner, Archer Strickland, Balukas, Hall, Mizerak, Murphy, Lassiter, Moore, Hopkins, Rempe, and Balsis—gosh, we had so MANY MORE American pro-caliber players back then—did stay ready and train for competition. Make no mistake about it. I've seen Earl break balls over and over again, hundreds of times, before a tournament to ensure his break is working, and on the offs, all these players were staying in stroke, staying ready for every single tournament.

As far as the talk about players being "drunk and doing drugs,’" the truth is, the only player drinking beer during a match was Keith. The rest were drinking water. A lot of scallywags like to bash players on social media, and maybe that’s entertainment for some. The Debbie Downers and Negative Nellies enjoy it, hiding behind a made-up forum name, preserving their real identity.

This is actually my all-time favorite match of Keith's because of hill-hill game at the end. Yes, it is fun to listen to the commentary and watch the players from yesteryear. My favorite commentators from this era, in no specific order, were Jerry Forsyth, Sid Wadell, Jimmy Wych, Grady Mathews, Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, and Buddy Hall. I haven't heard Kim Davenport commentating a lot, but in this match, I thought he was superb.

One of my favorite snippets:

BUDDY: And the tension builds. What do we do on the four ball?
KIM: Well, he can't spin it, though. He just got to roll the ball.
BUDDY: He's gotta roll it. He's got—he might spin it. He might try to spin it.
KIM: Yeah, but if he spins it, he can't hold no rock nowhere.
BUDDY: Well, if he spins it, he might try to spin it right into the five ball. He might try to spin snow right into the five.
KIM: Yeah, I don't like that. I like rolling it. If I'm gonna shoot it, I'm gonna roll it.
BUDDY: I like hitting the center ball.

 

[skogstokig]

I vehemently disagree that players from days gone by were not as good as today's players, and here's why. The equipment is extremely different, to include the cloth. Even the cue balls are different as well as the balls themselves. And then let's not forget about jump and break cues of today, to include the variety of tips. What about the multiplicity of chalk that is available today? I'm not sure what you call those black shafts, but they weren't around in the '80s and '90s. They were all wood, as I recall.

ko ping chung who blazed the US open only some year ago uses a standard, old school maple shaft. he won a world championship with a southwest, as did his big brother. lee van c plays with a cognoscenti or something similar, old school maple shaft. what LD shafts, and cf shafts, will do is cut down the learning curve. but as evidenced by above examples, they are not necessary to get there.

cue tips is the same thing. le pros and elkmasters are not worse performance-wise than for example kamui. but they are less consistent, less hassle. if you buy a box of elkmasters you may have to throw a few of them away and pick out the good ones. but once installed they are not worse (i would rather argue the opposite) than layered tips. it's a matter of convenience, and - for some - sponsor contracts. in pro snooker, where cue tip sponsors are non-existent, the most common tips are elkmasters and le pro.

i don't know what you mean about the balls being much different in pro tournament settings? the colors have changed obviously.. but are they better?

as for the jump cues, there are tournaments like DCC and turning stone that don't allow them. in the last edition filler BNR'd to the point that fedor just conceded.