Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

[fastone371]

Casual fans don’t want to watch referees, in any sport, looking at replays. It isn’t casual fan friendly and pool needs numbers.


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I don't agree with that. I think in most matches the viewer wants 1 player or the other to win which makes the outcome of the call very important. I think the viewer also wants to see a replay of the shot so he can make an informed decision himself on whether its a good hit or not.

 

[Baby Huey]

When I was much younger, the Billiard Congress of America was the governing body for rules in Cue Sports. It doesn't appear so today. As different tours, sponsors and events became common, rules began to blur and change. One common rule issue is the frozen ball stroke. We all know the issues with that shot. The APA and BCA haven't helped either with their large numbers of amateur members. This has spilled over to referee's and their training and knowledge base. Players IMO haven't helped by not calling fouls on themselves. Top caliber players shouldn't wait for the ref's call when they know they fouled.

 

[spartan]

I think it's just as likely that he hoped the ref would make the call, which is why he gave her time to do so. I don't have a problem with how Yapp reacted here. He should not be expected to referee the match when someone is there to do so. No other athlete, in any other refereed sport is expected to penalize themselves.

Precisely.
Players are paid to play (play to get paid) and refs are paid to ref.

Golf and snooker both come to mind. In both sports players are expected to call rule infractions on themselves and they regularly do so on the biggest stages.

Obviously snooker is the closest analogy. In snooker the players routinely call a foul on themselves for touching an OB, feathering the CB, double hitting the CB etc. even when there is a referee standing right there watching. I’ve seen dozens of televised matches where the player calls the foul and the referee didn’t see it.

The player in those situations is an a position to know with certainty that they fouled. I’ve said earlier that this particular situation (which ball is hit first) is harder and the closest example I’ve seen was a player asking the referee go watch a replay because they thought they might have hit the wrong ball first (he had not). In that situation I don’t know what the player should do if the referee does watch the replay and thinks it’s a good hit but the player thinks it wasn’t.

Dumb rule.
How many players would really call foul on themselves when the stakes are humungous? That's why spy agencies have a saying "Everyone Breaks". Forget the cheap words theatrics a player will say for the camera "I always call a foul on myself" or when the stakes are low.
I mean in Squid Game, during the Red Light Green Light game, those who moved when red light on but were not shot did not call foul on themselves, right?

 

[spartan]

I think a ref's knowledge of, understanding of, and experience with applying the rules is much more important than playing ability.

True. Maybe there is high turnover cannot get folks to take on this thankless job or the ref training system not working
I mean PBS brought in so called EPBF refs in previous event but still those refs blundered big time with countless lag-gate controversies, cannot apply rules consistently. More boo boos than Lisa https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/dumbest-tournament-rule-ever.562457/post-7765351

 

[middleofnowhere]

I think it's just as likely that he hoped the ref would make the call, which is why he gave her time to do so. I don't have a problem with how Yapp reacted here. He should not be expected to referee the match when someone is there to do so. No other athlete, in any other refereed sport is expected to penalize themselves.

People in general are basically dishonest given the chance. I would not expect them to call a penalty on themselves. Camaras everywhere now though have put a little fear into people. Not that it has changed their instincts, they are just a little more fearful of consequences.


.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The word 'ass' has been around a long time. No disputing that. But the construction of the phrase "masses are asses" definitely has a modern tinge, not an 18th century one.
...

The phrase is apparently a modern paraphrase. It slips off the tongue. What Hamilton apparently did say does not slip so well. The source of the paraphrase appears to be, in part:

All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and well born, the other the mass of the people.... The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the second, and as they cannot receive any advantage by change, they therefore will ever maintain good government.

-- Alexander Hamilton

 

[Paul_#_]

People in general are basically dishonest given the chance.

I think its more like people are dishonest when much is at stake. French law, I believe, presumes a defendant lies. This is not a criticism of the defendant, its a recognition of human nature that to the French, the defendant tends to lie.

I think its probably true, too, that people are dishonest if it will protect a family member. U.S. law has a spousal privilege that allows a spouse to not testify against their spouse.

 

[middleofnowhere]

I think its more like people are dishonest when much is at stake. French law, I believe, presumes a defendant lies. This is not a criticism of the defendant, its a recognition of human nature that to the French, the defendant tends to lie.

I think its probably true, too, that people are dishonest if it will protect a family member. U.S. law has a spousal privilege that allows a spouse to not testify against their spouse.

Essentially human beings which are basically just another species on the planet. By the very nature are predators. By probably a big measure, humans are probably the worst species on the earth when it comes to hurting each other.

I trust my wife of 50 years, my attorney who I have known since he was 14 years old and beyond that nobody else. I don't know you, but if you're honest with yourself and sit back and just say who do you really trust. I doubt you'll use up very many fingers.

 

[GideonF]

Dumb rule.
How many players would really call foul on themselves when the stakes are humungous?

I would say the vast majority of pro golfers and pro snooker players. You regularly see snooker players calling fouls on themselves in the biggest events.

It’s a culture thing - they were raised in the game knowing it was expected. There is hope for pool though - I remember Mickey Krause called a foul on himself in the Mosconi Cup.

 

[BasementDweller]

People in general are basically dishonest given the chance. I would not expect them to call a penalty on themselves. Camaras everywhere now though have put a little fear into people. Not that it has changed their instincts, they are just a little more fearful of consequences.


.

My interactions with fellow pool players has been overwhelmingly positive. I've been cheated a handful of times. The problem is -- the bad actors stand out and paint a bad picture.

 

[uk_9_ball_convert]

Golf and snooker both come to mind. In both sports players are expected to call rule infractions on themselves and they regularly do so on the biggest stages.

Obviously snooker is the closest analogy. In snooker the players routinely call a foul on themselves for touching an OB, feathering the CB, double hitting the CB etc. even when there is a referee standing right there watching. I’ve seen dozens of televised matches where the player calls the foul and the referee didn’t see it.

The player in those situations is an a position to know with certainty that they fouled. I’ve said earlier that this particular situation (which ball is hit first) is harder and the closest example I’ve seen was a player asking the referee go watch a replay because they thought they might have hit the wrong ball first (he had not). In that situation I don’t know what the player should do if the referee does watch the replay and thinks it’s a good hit but the player thinks it wasn’t.

Think curling is the same, though only became aware of that after there was lots of controversy at the most recent winter Olympics around Canada

 

[middleofnowhere]

My interactions with fellow pool players has been overwhelmingly positive. I've been cheated a handful of times. The problem is -- the bad actors stand out and paint a bad picture.

Own a bar and a couple of pool rooms for a number of years and you might have a different perspective. Get to see what people do to each other and do to you, are really like.

For the most part they're not your friends It just requires something for you to see it. It doesn't have to be pool, the people you work with your neighbors, your friends even family members. You'll find everybody has it in them to be a sleazy piece of s***.

 

[Island Drive]

People in general are basically dishonest given the chance. I would not expect them to call a penalty on themselves. Camaras everywhere now though have put a little fear into people. Not that it has changed their instincts, they are just a little more fearful of consequences.


.

I disagree, I saw a player last week make a ball had perfect shape to run out but told his opponent he didn't call the shot.
One's character and person are more important to many than Money.

 

[skogstokig]

players that are at the top or dominating for the moment will be under more scrutiny. svb, filler and kaci have had their accusations of dishonesty, whether it's been pattern racking or touch fouls. i think it comes with the territory.

i don't think yapp is dishonest.

 

[Island Drive]

players that are at the top or dominating for the moment will be under more scrutiny. svb, filler and kaci have had their accusations of dishonesty, whether it's been pattern racking or touch fouls. i think it comes with the territory.

i don't think yapp is dishonest.

Agreed, but I think he knew which ball he contacted first. If he'd of picked up the cb and handed to his opponent.... that would Speak loudly to mankind.

 

[jbart65]

The phrase is apparently a modern paraphrase. It slips off the tongue. What Hamilton apparently did say does not slip so well. The source of the paraphrase appears to be, in part:

All communities divide themselves into the few and the many. The first are the rich and well born, the other the mass of the people.... The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the first class a distinct, permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the second, and as they cannot receive any advantage by change, they therefore will ever maintain good government.

-- Alexander Hamilton

Lots of founders shared such sentiments, as I noted earlier, Bob, but the "masses are asses" is quite a ... "paraphrase" of the longer Hamilton remarks you referenced!

***

I am amazed at how fired up AZB posters are about the Yapp shot.

Personally I don't think any player should call a foul on himself with a ref present unless it is extremely obvious and the ref somehow misses it ( a playing touching a CB with his tip prematurely, etc). I don't think I would even allow it if I were a governing authority.

Players should not be expected to have DrDave level of scientific knowledge of CB reactions. Others here disagree, and I respect that. I just don't like the attacks on Yapp's integrity as if he's a untrustworthy or immoral player.

 

[skogstokig]

Agreed, but I think he knew which ball he contacted first. If he'd of picked up the cb and handed to his opponent.... that would Speak loudly to mankind.

a small step for yapp, but a giant leap for mankind

 

[Baby Huey]

Bart - we expect our pro golfers to call fouls on themselves as we see it regularly when watching tournaments. Why would we not expect the same same of pool players. I see 3C players call fouls on themselves so does that mean pool players aren't required to have the same behavioral standards?

 

[middleofnowhere]

Bart - we expect our pro golfers to call fouls on themselves as we see it regularly when watching tournaments. Why would we not expect the same same of pool players. I see 3C players call fouls on themselves so does that mean pool players aren't required to have the same behavioral standards?

I don't know, from my small experience on the golf course I didn't find them to be the most honorable people I've ever met.