Which One ???

The three best safety players I've ever seen were Efren Reyes, Nick Varner and Alex Pagulayan. All three, though solid shot-makers, were at their best when they were executing the tactical shots and stifling opponents.

I think I'd rather play like these three tactically than shoot as straight as prime Earl, Shane, Lassiter, Archer, Filler or Shaw.

Still, as Garczar notes, you better be good at shot-making and defense if you want to beat really good players.
 
Mensabum said:
You can rattle a guy quick if you constantly blow out his safeties with a shot.
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We were talking about really good safety players so I am assuming that they are not leaving a shot - burying the white ball. “Constantly “ blowing out safeties means that the safeties are no good - ID care how good the shot maker facing the safety- you leave a makeable short than you left a bad safe too in most cases- not all.
 
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The full or at least fuller story of me beating Johnny Archer when he was a barbox monster. He came looking for me in my local gambling den when I was gambling on pool nightly. He won the coin flip and got the first break. Called the pocket the eight went in. Did that twice more and everyone watching was urging me to quit. "Naah, I want to see that again." He was slow rolling the eight into the side pocket. I refused to give him anything but a perfect rack. The fourth time the eight stopped in the jaws of that same pocket without touching anything.

Never a golden break but a handful of break and runs, I won the next dozen games and that was that. Easy to count the fives in my pocket, I had started with none and changed a twenty to pay for those first three games. Funny, I had never heard of Johnny Archer. I could tell he thought he was somebody when he introduced himself but I had never heard of him in my little backwater before the internet. He was waiting for the flash of recognition in my eyes but I had never heard of him and didn't fear anyone on my home turf anyway.

After I had gotten my money back I won a few more games and decided to back off a little. The balls were falling like rain and I was making over twenty an hour when union construction wages were nine and a nickel! Next shot Johnny waggled his stick all over the table and made an eight rail kick that stopped in the jaws without touching anything. After that I still tried to let him swing a stick a few times a game but my safeties were tighter than the bank vault next door!

It wasn't until the smoke cleared that I realized Johnny had never made another ball after the three eights on the break! A good argument for a tactical safety player. I don't remember the table ever forcing a safety, they were all planned multiple balls in advance. I might have needed to play some safeties but none were because of the shot before, all early table layout or trying to keep Johnny on the table as funny as that sounds now!

Hu
 
mikemosconi said:
We were talking about really good safety players so I am assuming that they are not leaving a shot - burying the white ball. “Constantly “ blowing out safeties means that the safeties are no good - ID care how good the shot maker facing the safety- you leave a makeable short than you left a bad safe too in most cases- not all.
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In most cases, I'd agree w that. Solid lock ups, yes.
 
sjm said:
The three best safety players I've ever seen were Efren Reyes, Nick Varner and Alex Pagulayan. All three, though solid shot-makers, were at their best when they were executing the tactical shots and stifling opponents.

I think I'd rather play like these three tactically than shoot as straight as prime Earl, Shane, Lassiter, Archer, Filler or Shaw.

Still, as Garczar notes, you better be good at shot-making and defense if you want to beat really good players.
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Great safeties are good shots in their own right, but I'd much rather make balls. That's where I gleen the most satisfaction. The chess match of safeties may appeal to some, just not my cup of Java.
 
I notice today's players are far better jump shot artists than even five years ago. A safety from five or ten years ago is in the pocket now. Even twenty years ago I was happy to see my opponent had a jump cue. Most were less than 50% with an excellent chance of a scratch or balls flying off the table.

The games have evolved, better players and better equipment. Seems like time for rules to evolve to balance offense and defense again. Offense has gotten too easy, therefore the tighter pockets but those have their own issues.

Hu
 
Mensabum said:
Great safeties are good shots in their own right, but I'd much rather make balls. That's where I gleen the most satisfaction. The chess match of safeties may appeal to some, just not my cup of Java.
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I see the ideal greatest players as those that possess two mindsets but with equal weight.
One that can devote equal skill and equal emphasis on either aspect of the game with the end goal of winning as the main driver . Smart enough to hide from the enemy until there is an opening for a kill shot!

You can go way back to even straight pool days and guys like Crane and Cicero Murphy were great 14.1 safety players but could get up and run 100 and out given the opening. If you ever played against a high run but also real good 14.1 safety player you know how they can torture you into a 125 to 15 loss very easily. That is how big spots were given in 14.1 gambling matches - like playing for 100 vs. 25 points.
 
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SHORTY WRIGHT said:
Is it better to be a shot maker or a person that knows how to play safety’s real good ??
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Safety play and good position play go together. Both require good cue ball control. I think good shot making just seems to come. Good shot making generally just requires the confidence in your ability to take the shoot.

I think the way player seem to play now, at least from what I see in the television tournaments. Players are less inclined to take a tough shot. Safety play though it was always part of the game, now appears to become almost half of the game.

We used to play a game called "One shot Harrigan". I'm not going to go into explaining how the game was played but it was a gambling game. It was amazing what players could make when they had to shoot.
 
sjm said:
The three best safety players I've ever seen were Efren Reyes, Nick Varner and Alex Pagulayan. All three, though solid shot-makers, were at their best when they were executing the tactical shots and stifling opponents.

I think I'd rather play like these three tactically than shoot as straight as prime Earl, Shane, Lassiter, Archer, Filler or Shaw.

Still, as Garczar notes, you better be good at shot-making and defense if you want to beat really good players.
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Luther's defense in 14.1 was Very good, he'd much rather take 3 scratches and loss of points and a rerack than ever give his peers a good shot.
Saw his play at Janscos and was impressed at his defense.
 
sjm said:
Yes, but well below the 14.1 defense of Irving Crane.
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I saw Crane play a number of times but only really had a conversation with him once. It was at the US Open on Chicago after he had just lost to Miz.

I was in the front row and after the match I was in the hotel restaurant. Crane came in and sat like one table from me. He was talking to who I assume was his wife. He was going on and on how his safe was perfect.

What happened was he safed Miz thinking Miz would play safe. Instead Miz took a very low percentage shot, made it and ran out. Crane went nuts. I thought he may break his cue putting it back in his case. Maybe that was why his wife didn't watch him play.

Next thing he is looking at me and says he saw it didn't he shoot the wrong shot? Of course I agreed with him and we got into a conversation for a while. He kind of complained about everything. The tables, lighting, the ref. I think he may have been easy to get annoyed.
 
middleofnowhere said:
I saw Crane play a number of times but only really had a conversation with him once. It was at the US Open on Chicago after he had just lost to Miz.

I was in the front row and after the match I was in the hotel restaurant. Crane came in and sat like one table from me. He was talking to who I assume was his wife. He was going on and on how his safe was perfect.

What happened was he safed Miz thinking Miz would play safe. Instead Miz took a very low percentage shot, made it and ran out. Crane went nuts. I thought he may break his cue putting it back in his case. Maybe that was why his wife didn't watch him play.

Next thing he is looking at me and says he saw it didn't he shoot the wrong shot? Of course I agreed with him and we got into a conversation for a while. He kind of complained about everything. The tables, lighting, the ref. I think he may have been easy to get annoyed.
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Good story. Thanks for sharing. I knew Irving well. Despite this incident, one of Crane's go-to comments was "the percentages don't always work." He also offered this doozy on the subject of getting the rolls: "over a lifetime, you will get half the rolls, but that doesn't mean you'll get half of them today."

I once asked him who, other than himself, played the best 14.1 defense he had ever seen. His answer was Allen Hopkins.
 
sjm said:
Good story. Thanks for sharing. I knew Irving well. Despite this incident, one of Crane's go-to comments was "the percentages don't always work." He also offered this doozy on the subject of getting the rolls: "over a lifetime, you will get half the rolls, but that doesn't mean you'll get half of them today."

I once asked him who, other than himself, played the best 14.1 defense he had ever seen. His answer was Allen Hopkins.
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What the shot was, was Crane went off the rack and put Miz back on the end rail almost in the corner pocket. There was a ball out from the rack slightly that could be cut backwards in the corner pocket. There's no way you could shoot at this ball though it would be crazy.

For one thing it's a thin cut and as it goes toward the pocket even if you hit it good enough to make it it's moving slow. Part of the cluster including the cue ball would most likely kiss it out. It's going to have to go through traffic.

While Crane is waiting in the chair to go back to the table and return a safety. Miz all of a sudden calls the ball and fires it in. Crane has an immediate reaction to this inexplicable turn of events and the massive of round of applause.

Then add to that the fact that he didn't get back to the table again, he was really angry.
This was in the early '70s because I was there all four years that Miz won the tournament.
Wow I'm doing a math in my head, it's over 50 years ago. Where did all those years go.

I came back to add this because this thread is about shot making and safety play. I'm thinking what was going through Miz's head as he's looking at that shot. I suspect he's thinking I could make this even if it's low percentage. And also I could play safe and a couple innings later be sitting in a chair watching Crane run it. The game doesn't come with guarantees.
 
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