Is it legal to do this with my cue?

I think as long as your cue doesn't touch any balls, and you don't lay the entire cue down on the table, you should be good.

It's perfectly legal and I've seen many people do it.

If it works for you keep at it.

usually legal

michael4 said:

While practicing a tough cut shot that was not instinctive for me, I walked behind the object ball, in direct line with the pocket. I then held my cue behind the OB directly on this line (toward the pocket) I then placed the tip of the cue lightly on the table, about half a ball diameter behind the OB (representing to me, the exact center of the “ghost ball”, or the aiming spot). The butt of the cue was about a foot above the table. I then left the cue tip on the table at that spot, but pivoted the butt of the cue in the air back over the cue ball.
Now my cue is forming a direct line from the CB to the aiming spot. I dropped down on this line, lifted my tip off the table, drew the cue back and hit the shot (and made it)

Not that I want to make a habit of doing this, but just wondering if its legal in a real game?

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As stated above, usually legal if the cue stick never leaves your hand. Best to wipe the chalk off of your tip if you have already chalked for the next shot. Marking the table is illegal of course and some accuse people of doing this when they leave the tip on the table while moving around.

Hu

ShootingArts said:

As stated above, usually legal if the cue stick never leaves your hand. Best to wipe the chalk off of your tip if you have already chalked for the next shot. Marking the table is illegal of course and some accuse people of doing this when they leave the tip on the table while moving around.

Hu

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Why would someone stay on the aiming line? It's not like they're shooting one handed .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP4RvZJMPd8

Perfectly legal. I've seen Parica do this a few times . Specially on frozen rail shots.

pretty common around here too

JoeyInCali said:

Why would someone stay on the aiming line? It's not like they're shooting one handed .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP4RvZJMPd8

Perfectly legal. I've seen Parica do this a few times . Specially on frozen rail shots.

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It's pretty common to do that around here too. I haven't used it much but on some shots that are a bit odd angled I get behind the object ball and lock my eyes on the spot where the center of the ghost ball should be and then walk back around the table never letting my eyes leave the point I want the cue ball to cross. A nice trick for backcutting balls and it doesn't give the other player anything to whine about. The original method doesn't give people anything legitimate to whine about but we have some world class whiners around here who never miss a chance to stay in practice, valid reason or not.

The video gives me a great idea. I just put a roll of the blue low adhesion masking tape in my cue case along with one of the laser level thingies that throws lines across walls and floors and such. Next time I have an interesting shot I'm going to break out the level and start taping lines on the floor and far wall. Should make whomever I'm playing with crazy especially after I break out a tape measure and calculator and do some high level cyphering! (yeah, jacking with the whiners is one of my joys in life, what else can I say? :thumbup

Hu

A couple of observations...

...whether playing under WSR or BCAPL rules:

If a mark is left it may or may not be a foul, as it is not a foul if the mark is unintentional. However, I fully agree with the advice to thoroughly remove all loose chalk from your tip before performing such an alignment. If you do leave a mark, the determination of intent is at the discretion of the referee. No sense in taking a chance.

ShootingArts said:

...usually legal if the cue stick never leaves your hand...

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Taking your hand off the stick, while it is lying on the table, while using it for aligning a shot is a foul under WSR 6.12. In BCAPL play, however, there is no requirement to keep your hand on the stick.


Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

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I do it all the time. Never had any issues.

Black Cat

JoeyInCali said:

Perfectly legal. I've seen Parica do this a few times .

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I've seen Johnny Archer do this before too!!!

Maniac

tatcat2000 said:

Taking your hand off the stick, while it is lying on the table, while using it for aligning a shot is a foul under WSR 6.12. In BCAPL play, however, there is no requirement to keep your hand on the stick.


Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

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Thanks for that Buddy. This question came up in league about the WPA rule (not related to the league match, obviously) and someone said a guy had his cue on the table and let go of it while fumbling with the bridge and a foul was called. I said at the time I didn't think that was a foul but by the time I got home forgot all about looking up the rule until I just read this. :wink:

DogsPlayingPool said:

...and let go of it while fumbling with the bridge and a foul was called. I said at the time I didn't think that was a foul...

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It should not have been a foul if there was no intent align the shot. The classic example of a "no foul" call is placing the stick on the table to stop and tie a shoe. Maybe not the smartest move, but it should not be called a foul. Nor should momentarily placing a cue on the table in order to gain control of a bridge, or an accidental drop of the cue (other fouls, like hitting the CB when doing so, aside).

WSR 6.12 clearly specifies the use of the cue "...in order to align a shot..." If the cue ends up on the table with no hand attached for other non-alignment purposes, a foul should not be called.

As with so many other issues, the determination of intent is at the discretion of the referee.

Buddy

It might depend on what set of rules you are playing.

You are also aloud to set the cue down on the table not in your hand. As long as you don't mark the table it is legal. So make sure you wipe the table if you think you might of marked the spot.

I did this exact same thing last November at an ACS league tournament. My opponent never said a word however after my inning at the table was over i was approached by an onlooking referee who gave me a warning and informed me that if i did that again he would be forced to call a foul on me. Thats the first and only issue ive ever had with that technique.

no hands - okay here

The APA here (Charlotte, NC) not only allows you to lay your cue on the table, you can also take your hands off of it and leave it there whilst you wander around the table contemplating....


Steve H

There is a Efren Reyes vs Jim Rempe match on YouTube where Rempe does this.

Maniac said:

I've seen Johnny Archer do this before too!!!

Maniac

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And he he chalks up good first Johnnyt

it's called reflective measurement...........

michael4 said:

While practicing a tough cut shot that was not instinctive for me, I walked behind the object ball, in direct line with the pocket. I then held my cue behind the OB directly on this line (toward the pocket) I then placed the tip of the cue lightly on the table, about half a ball diameter behind the OB (representing to me, the exact center of the “ghost ball”, or the aiming spot). The butt of the cue was about a foot above the table. I then left the cue tip on the table at that spot, but pivoted the butt of the cue in the air back over the cue ball.
Now my cue is forming a direct line from the CB to the aiming spot. I dropped down on this line, lifted my tip off the table, drew the cue back and hit the shot (and made it)

Not that I want to make a habit of doing this, but just wondering if its legal in a real game?

Click to expand...

When a player like Effren or Parica or Duell does this they are actually measureing the amount of the cue ball that is going to hit the object ball with the reflection of the ferule in the object ball. You need to know how to do this correctly or the movement is almost meaningless. I show players how to do this in my video.

Players that are doing it to see where the ghost ball is are kind of copying what they saw the better players doing to visualize the ghost ball not knowing the real reason this is done. The better players are not doing it to put a chalk mark down I guarantee. The chalk mark theory is just that, a theory.

It works well if the shot is a 1/3 of a ball hit or less.

I measure all the balls that I can't quite naturally figure out with a eunique way of measuring that I teach. I have players sometimes mimic what I am doing and I know there is almost no benefit for them because they don't know how it's done. It's pretty much meaningless.

That's why it might seem meaningless to players looking at it and thinking, what good does that really doing? Their not really seeing the real reason behind the method.

It actually works pretty well.If it didn't do you really think the better players would be doing it?

Just trying to tell the truth here and explain.

Geno.....

The manouver is perfectly legal, however, you have to be careful to a) avoid touching any balls, b) leaving a mark on the cloth, c) you have to remain in contact with your cue at all times.

If you let go of the cue while it is on the table it is a foul--as the cue went from being a straight edge (which is legal) to being a measuring device (which is illegal).

Leaving a mark on the cloth is equivalent to leaving a chalk cube on the rail as an aiming point.

DoubleD said:

or leaving the chalk at the aiming point.

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Can you provide a link to rules stating that this is a foul?

Aten said:

Can you provide a link to rules stating that this is a foul?

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Here are a couple from the World Standardized rules:

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

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Using the chalk to mark a spot on the rail is a violation just as using chalk to mark the cloth is.


and

1.3 Player’s Use of Equipment
The equipment must meet existing WPA equipment specifications. In general, players are not permitted to introduce novel equipment into the game. The following uses, among others, are considered normal. If the player is uncertain about a particular use of equipment, he should discuss it with the tournament management prior to the start of play. The equipment must be used only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended. (See 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)
(a) Cue Stick – The player is permitted to switch between cue sticks during the match, such as break, jump and normal cues. He may use either a built-in extender or an add-on extender to increase the length of the stick.
(b) Chalk – The player may apply chalk to his tip to prevent miscues, and may use his own chalk, provided its color is compatible with the cloth.
(c) Mechanical Bridges – The player may use up to two mechanical bridges to support the cue stick during the shot. The configuration of the bridges is up to the player. He may use his own bridge if it is similar to standard bridges.
(d) Gloves – The player may use gloves to improve the grip and/or bridge hand function.
(e) Powder – A player is allowed to use powder in a reasonable amount as determined by the referee.

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This rule clearly states the equipment must be used for its intended purpose and further goes on to specify what the intended use of chalk is.