Jay Helfert, re: Gary Spaeth

Joe Pickens · Jun 24, 2010

Jay, I read your reply to someone asking about Gary Spaeth and you said that he was a good banker in the same league with Jason Miller and others. If I remember correctly Gary taught Jason how to bank and was always thought of as the best banker around by many players in the Dayton, Ohio area.

Maybe you hadn't seen him shoot later on after his dad passed away or it could be that I am just wrong, but I always heard that Gary was the best.

On another note, I received your book a couple days ago and it is great. After I read it I plan on starting right in and reading it again.

jay helfert · Jun 25, 2010

Joe Pickens said:
Jay, I read your reply to someone asking about Gary Spaeth and you said that he was a good banker in the same league with Jason Miller and others. If I remember correctly Gary taught Jason how to bank and was always thought of as the best banker around by many players in the Dayton, Ohio area.

Maybe you hadn't seen him shoot later on after his dad passed away or it could be that I am just wrong, but I always heard that Gary was the best.

On another note, I received your book a couple days ago and it is great. After I read it I plan on starting right in and reading it again.

Gary was the best around in his day, right there with Truman and Tony Fargo. After Gary passed on, Jason Miller improved to where he was playing close to the same speed. All this is just my opinion, based on my observations. As good as Gary was, Eddie Taylor had a higher speed. Again just my observation, but I did see Taylor in his prime. I still say Taylor, Bugs and Cannonball were the best Bankers ever. I don't know enough about Vernon Elliott and Bob Bowles to put them up there with these three, but many people think they were.

I'll tell you about Eddie Taylor. If you were playing Banks with him and you rattled a long railer, you were done. He ran eight and out better than Ronnie ran out in One Pocket. And fast too! Short Rack Banks would have been a joke to Taylor. Nothing but fives all day long! If he only ran four he would have probably been disgusted.

Joe, did you know how good Joe Burns played Banks? He was the best around before Gary came up. He played Taylor getting 9-7 in Dayton in the late 60's and they battled for a couple of days. I think Eddie finally edged him out. Joe beat all the guys who used to come up from Kentucky. Even George Rood wouldn't play Banks with Joe. Ask him.

Joe Pickens · Jun 25, 2010

jay helfert said:
Gary was the best around in his day, right there with Truman and Tony Fargo. After Gary passed on, Jason Miller improved to where he was playing close to the same speed. All this is just my opinion, based on my observations. As good as Gary was, Eddie Taylor had a higher speed. Again just my observation, but I did see Taylor in his prime. I still say Taylor, Bugs and Cannonball were the best Bankers ever. I don't know enough about Vernon Elliott and Bob Bowles to put them up there with these three, but many people think they were.

I'll tell you about Eddie Taylor. If you were playing Banks with him and you rattled a long railer, you were done. He ran eight and out better than Ronnie ran out in One Pocket. And fast too! Short Rack Banks would have been a joke to Taylor. Nothing but fives all day long! If he only ran four he would have probably been disgusted.

Joe, did you know how good Joe Burns played Banks? He was the best around before Gary came up. He played Taylor getting 9-7 in Dayton in the late 60's and they battled for a couple of days. I think Eddie finally edged him out. Joe beat all the guys who used to come up from Kentucky. Even George Rood wouldn't play Banks with Joe. Ask him.

No, I didn't know Joe Burns was a banker. I played a few times at Forest Park Billiards, but I really never knew Joe Burns until he was the owner of Golden Cue on Linden Ave. in Dayton. I don't ever remember seeing him play because he was always behind the counter when I was there. I bought a cue from him once and played there most of the time.

I will mention to George Rood about Joe Burns being a good banker and see if he has any stories to tell.

I played George Rood one time in a 9-ball tournament at Golden Cue in the early 1990's and beat him 3-0. Of course, I wouldn't have been able to come close to him in his prime.

cuesmith · Jun 25, 2010

Joe Pickens said:
Jay, I read your reply to someone asking about Gary Spaeth and you said that he was a good banker in the same league with Jason Miller and others. If I remember correctly Gary taught Jason how to bank and was always thought of as the best banker around by many players in the Dayton, Ohio area.

Maybe you hadn't seen him shoot later on after his dad passed away or it could be that I am just wrong, but I always heard that Gary was the best.

On another note, I received your book a couple days ago and it is great. After I read it I plan on starting right in and reading it again.

You're right about Gary! I staked him for many years and he just about ruined bank pool, winning every tournament he entered in about a 10 year period. He beat all the greats except he never played Eddie Taylor even though Eddie was past him prime before Gary reached his. He played Bugs several times with Bugs breaking even in games on his best match and Gary won all the others. He got 8-7 from Bugs playing one-pocket and won at that also and frankly I don't think the ball spot came into play much. He used to spot Shannon Daulton 9-7 & breaks + Shannon's fouls didn't count against him. Gary was one of the most under-rated all around players ever. In 9-ball tournaments he beat Buddy Hall 6 out of 7 times they played while I was staking him. And you should know the Airway Billiard player field. Gary won the monday tournament there 12 times in a row and about half the times he entered. That doesn't sound like much until you understand the dynamics of that tournament. There was always at least a dozen players who were subject to run a set on you there. I know that staking Gary bought my ex wife a house.

jay helfert · Jun 25, 2010

cuesmith said:
You're right about Gary! I staked him for many years and he just about ruined bank pool, winning every tournament he entered in about a 10 year period. He beat all the greats except he never played Eddie Taylor even though Eddie was past him prime before Gary reached his. He played Bugs several times with Bugs breaking even in games on his best match and Gary won all the others. He got 8-7 from Bugs playing one-pocket and won at that also and frankly I don't think the ball spot came into play much. He used to spot Shannon Daulton 9-7 & breaks + Shannon's fouls didn't count against him. Gary was one of the most under-rated all around players ever. In 9-ball tournaments he beat Buddy Hall 6 out of 7 times they played while I was staking him. And you should know the Airway Billiard player field. Gary won the monday tournament there 12 times in a row and about half the times he entered. That doesn't sound like much until you understand the dynamics of that tournament. There was always at least a dozen players who were subject to run a set on you there. I know that staking Gary bought my ex wife a house.

Giving that spot to Shannon is most impressive! Shannon was already a top One Pocket player by the time he was 19. By the 90's, Bug's game had slipped. His best game may have been 10-20 years earlier. Freddie would know better than me. When Bugs came to L.A. in 1993, he was hurting.

The Saw · Jun 25, 2010

cuesmith said:
You're right about Gary! I staked him for many years and he just about ruined bank pool, winning every tournament he entered in about a 10 year period. He beat all the greats except he never played Eddie Taylor even though Eddie was past him prime before Gary reached his. He played Bugs several times with Bugs breaking even in games on his best match and Gary won all the others. He got 8-7 from Bugs playing one-pocket and won at that also and frankly I don't think the ball spot came into play much. He used to spot Shannon Daulton 9-7 & breaks + Shannon's fouls didn't count against him. Gary was one of the most under-rated all around players ever. In 9-ball tournaments he beat Buddy Hall 6 out of 7 times they played while I was staking him. And you should know the Airway Billiard player field. Gary won the monday tournament there 12 times in a row and about half the times he entered. That doesn't sound like much until you understand the dynamics of that tournament. There was always at least a dozen players who were subject to run a set on you there. I know that staking Gary bought my ex wife a house.

Yeah, all of that and was a blast to have around!!! He is missed.....

cardiac kid · Jun 25, 2010

jay helfert said:
I still say Taylor, Bugs and Cannonball were the best Bankers ever. I don't know enough about Vernon Elliott and Bob Bowles to put them up there with these three, but many people think they were.

Jay,

Are you referring to Cannonball from Rome, NY? I know he played great 14.1. Never knew he banked!!!!

Lyn

jay helfert · Jun 25, 2010

cardiac kid said:
Jay,

Are you referring to Cannonball from Rome, NY? I know he played great 14.1. Never knew he banked!!!!

Lyn

No, not Eddie Klenowski. I knew him too and he played all games well. Gambled pretty good too. He was known as "White Cannonball".

I'm talking about John Chapman, originally from Texas. He was "Black Cannonball". He played all over the country in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Not many know his story but he played all games at a very high speed. In the 50's, he went to the National Championships in St. Louis (where they wouldn't let him play) and challenged anyone to play Straight Pool for money.

Cannonball's best game was Bank Pool and only a Taylor or the like would mess with him. I heard (he told me) he beat everyone in Chicago (late 50's - early 60's) when he came through there and did the same cruising the South. I know of no one who ever beat him at Banks. Freddie says Bugs and Taylor did and I believe him.

cuesmith · Jun 25, 2010

jay helfert said:
Giving that spot to Shannon is most impressive! Shannon was already a top One Pocket player by the time he was 19. By the 90's, Bug's game had slipped. His best game may have been 10-20 years earlier. Freddie would know better than me. When Bugs came to L.A. in 1993, he was hurting.

In all fairness, that spot he gave Shannon was when Shannon was about 15 or 16 but he had a lot of heart even back then. The last time Gary played Shannon was in 9-ball at the DCC 2000. The first game Gary played a lock up safety with the cue ball frozen to the end rail with a ball frozen to the cue ball and nowhere to kick. Shannon lumbered to the table and said "I can see what this day's going to be like." Gary beat him 7-2. He would have probably won the bank and the all-around that year but Efren out-moved him in their Bank-Pool match and kept him from winning those titles.

jay helfert · Jun 25, 2010

For a brief moment this thread brought tears to my eyes. I remember Bugs, the warrior he was, limping around the tables in Los Angeles in 1993 and still playing good Banks. He never complained or offered any excuses. That's not the kind of man he was. All the years I knew him (and maybe only spoke to him once or twice), he always carried himself in a very dignified manner. No raised voices, no bragging, no nothing. He would walk in the pool room and just stand there. He was the quiet assassin, looking for his prey.

Everyone would know Bugs was in the house, and the whole mood in the room would change. He had a God-like presence in the pool world. People/players were in awe of him. Hubert Cokes was the only other person I ever saw who commanded this kind of respect. Bugs was a legendary figure, who most people wouldn't even approach. He talked very little, just observed. He made his games quietly and without fanfare, usually having someone (like Sylvester or Paul Jones) match it up for him. When he was satisfied with the game, he just went to the table and got it on. He went about his business just as quietly too. And when it was over, he disappeared into the night. Never saw another one like him!

cardiac kid · Jun 25, 2010

Jay,

Thanks for the reply. Some of the old timers around Rochester remember Cannonball well. Surprized you knew him. He was coming around just about the time I began to play in the middle sixties. My next door neighbor used to travel around New York with him. You are the fountain of information:bow-down:.

Lyn

Ken_4fun · Jun 25, 2010

I have been to every DCC and only got to see Gary Spaeth once. I had never heard of him, but was watching him play (not sure what year) and thinking "who in the hell is this guy?".

It didnt take but about 10-15 minutes to see this guy was something to see. Thankfully I did see him play several matches, it was quite the honor as shortly after that, I heard he had died of cancer.

I am thankful for alot of the guys I get to see for the first time at DCC. This year it was Cole Dickson. While I am sure he isnt what he was in his prime, he too, put some impressive runs together. For those folks that think they will go "next year", you really need to make the trip, its great to see so many of these guys you have never actually seen, but heard about. (Just my 2 cents)

Ken

cuesmith · Jun 25, 2010

jay helfert said:
For a brief moment this thread brought tears to my eyes. I remember Bugs, the warrior he was, limping around the tables in Los Angeles in 1993 and still playing good Banks. He never complained or offered any excuses. That's not the kind of man he was. All the years I knew him (and maybe only spoke to him once or twice), he always carried himself in a very dignified manner. No raised voices, no bragging, no nothing. He would walk in the pool room and just stand there. He was the quiet assassin, looking for his prey.

Everyone would know Bugs was in the house, and the whole mood in the room would change. He had a God-like presence in the pool world. People were in awe of him. Hubert Cokes was the only other person I ever saw who commanded this kind of respect. Bugs was a legendary figure, who most people wouldn't even approach. He talked very little, just observed. He made his games quietly and without fanfare, usually having someone (like Sylvester or Paul Jones) match it up for him. When he was satisfied with the game, he just went to the table and got it on. He went about his business just as quietly too. And when it was over, he disappeared into the night. Never saw another one like him!

I know what you mean Jay! Bugs was certainly a man who lived up to the legend. He was the best action you could find in pool too. I don't say that because we won most of the time, I know Bugs was a bit past his prime when Gary played him. But Bugs always was alway friendly, soft spoken and you never wondered if you were going to have trouble if you won. Bugs would call fouls on himself if he goofed up and never questioned a call from his opponent. Paul Jones, you mentioned was another class act! Yes. this thread brings tears to me also, Jay. It was a different time that unfortunately the young guns will never know! Cecil Tugwell was another great black player who had to struggle through.

jay helfert · Jun 25, 2010

cardiac kid said:
Jay,

Thanks for the reply. Some of the old timers around Rochester remember Cannonball well. Surprized you knew him. He was coming around just about the time I began to play in the middle sixties. My next door neighbor used to travel around New York with him. You are the fountain of information:bow-down:.

Lyn

Lyn, I knew him from seeing him play around New York, both in Guys & Dolls and 7/11. This was in the mid 60's.

The Saw · Jun 25, 2010

cuesmith said:
I know what you mean Jay! Bugs was certainly a man who lived up to the legend. He was the best action you could find in pool too. I don't say that because we won most of the time, I know Bugs was a bit past his prime when Gary played him. But Bugs always was alway friendly, soft spoken and you never wondered if you were going to have trouble if you won. Bugs would call fouls on himself if he goofed up and never questioned a call from his opponent. Paul Jones, you mentioned was another class act! Yes. this thread brings tears to me also, Jay. It was a different time that unfortunately the young guns will never know! Cecil Tugwell was another great black player who had to struggle through.

Paul Jones moved pretty good too... Seen him two different times wearing a Dominos Pizza uniform (w/ flour on his shirt and pants) acting like he had just got paid and got a big bonus in his check.

Nothing better than Gary missing a bank during an 8ball team tourney and the whole Airway team yelling "BANK CHAMPION!!!", lol.....

BillPorter · Jun 25, 2010

Gary - a couple of short stories

Gary, in his prime was freakish good at banks, literally unbeatable. Back about 1980 I used to play in a partners tournament at Western Bowl in Cincinnati, I think it was on Monday nights. Gary was a regular at that tournament and a few times, before the tournament started, I practiced with him. He played so far above my speed that the way we practiced was we played nine-ball and Gary had to BANK EVERY SHOT! OK, it was just practice and no money was involved, and some of you won't believe this, but he generally held his own or came out a bit ahead in a 30 minutes practice session. Maybe that says as much about how weak my nine-ball game was, but it was not unusual for Gary to run out from the 5 or 6 ball.

In 1986 Gary won the banks tournament at a Clyde Childress tournament in Lexington, KY. I shot some photos at the tournament and got a shot of Gary that was published on the cover of Billiards News. Note the misspelling of his last name. Gary was tickled to see the shot of himself and I was happy to see him get some recognition. I think he beat Wade Crane in the finals of that tourney. Parica won the 9-Ball tournament that year.

doublej487 · Jun 25, 2010

my father beat gary one time at a viking tour event in sharonvillie ohio

Scott Lee · Jun 25, 2010

Wow Bill...Between you and Mike, Diana and maybe JAM, you guys together have more pictures of more poolplayers (past and present) than anybody I can think of! You all need to get together and publish a 'coffee-table' book of poolplayer photos! It would be like the Blue Book...only just players! :thumbup: I think it would sell well!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

BillPorter said:
Gary, in his prime was freakish good at banks, literally unbeatable. Back about 1980 I used to play in a partners tournament at Western Bowl in Cincinnati, I think it was on Monday nights. Gary was a regular at that tournament and a few times, before the tournament started, I practiced with him. He played so far above my speed that the way we practiced was we played nine-ball and Gary had to BANK EVERY SHOT! OK, it was just practice and no money was involved, and some of you won't believe this, but he generally held his own or came out a bit ahead in a 30 minutes practice session. Maybe that says as much about how weak my nine-ball game was, but it was not unusual for Gary to run out from the 5 or 6 ball.

In 1986 Gary won the banks tournament at a Clyde Childress tournament in Lexington, KY. I shot some photos at the tournament and got a shot of Gary that was published on the cover of Billiards News. Note the misspelling of his last name. Gary was tickled to see the shot of himself and I was happy to see him get some recognition. I think he beat Wade Crane in the finals of that tourney. Parica won the 9-Ball tournament that year.

cuesmith · Jun 25, 2010

doublej487 said:
my father beat gary one time at a viking tour event in sharonvillie ohio

"Who's your Daddy?" lol just curious. Gary hated Golden T in Sharonville. They had the National Shuffleboard Pool Tables with about 6" pockets and gold cloth! UGH Not to take anything away from your Dad's victory, it still took a hell of a player to get past him.

When I had Beechmont Billiards Gary was of course the "house pro". We had a race to 5 DBL Elim tourney every Saturday. Gary won most of the one he played in (when he won he had to sit out next week. He was the only one we handicapped this way). One week I drew Gary in the first round. He hadn't picked up his cue in 2 weeks (since he won the last Saturday tourney) and I got off with a bang and had him 4-0 racing to 5. I'd never beat him a race of 9-ball before and I was feeling a little cocky. I told him " Looks like I'm finally going to beat you, Spud" as he was racking for me to break. I didn't make anything on the break and didn't make another ball in the match! He "3 fouled" twice and ran the other 3 racks! When he put you in jail, you were in MAX Security prison! I guess I should have kept my big mouth shut!

Tom In Cincy · Jun 25, 2010

I use to give Gary a ride to Airways in Dayton on Monday nights. That was a tough group of players; Jason Miller was just a young teenager and whooping up on a lot of the locals.

Some of the regular players I remember;
'Out of Town' Joe Brown, Steve 'Cookie Monster' Cook, Bucky Bell, the Carelli brothers, Grant Hamilton, Rick Garrison, Whitey and his son Tommy Stephenson and of course Gary.

Tough tournament format.. race to 4 on the winners side/ race to 2 on the one loss side. All kinds of different tables were used. Mostly 8 and 9 foot tables in different conditions of disrepair. Only a few were in 'Good Condition' Later when they moved the room location to just off the interstate, they got some Diamond tables and the rest of the tables started to play much better.

$5 entry fee... made it popular for a lot of players to show up and it wasn't unusual to have 50+ players. Very few arguments.. just quick play and it was usually over by 1am.

Hardly anyone expected to win in this tournament.. except those players I mentioned.

Jay Helfert, re: Gary Spaeth

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