the grip

ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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OK, lets start with something that the majority of us can agree on, in math two points are needed to describe a line and only one line can pass between two points.

Our bridge is one point that our cue stick passes through and we go to considerable efforts to make sure the bridge doesn't move and that the cue stick doesn't move around in our bridge. We do our best to insure that point is fixed.

Then we come to the grip, the other point the line of our cue stick passes through. In order to use the strokes in vogue at the moment we have to either use a very loose sloppy grip, a one or two finger and thumb grip, and/or use some very involved movements of the wrist or fingers to maintain a somewhat straight stroke in the area of the stroke that the tip hits the cue ball. This isn't a major issue if the forearm is very close to perpendicular to the cue at "set" and contact, however the vast majority of players hit the cue with the forearm in front of perpendicular meaning that the cue stick is getting further out of alignment with every bit forward it travels if a firm grip and fixed elbow position is utilized.

Is the soft basically sloppy grip currently used by seemingly most pool players a bad idea for peak accuracy and primarily something that has evolved as a compensation for a fixed elbow position?

Hu
 
Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
ShootingArts said:
Is the soft basically sloppy grip currently used by seemingly most pool players a bad idea for peak accuracy and primarily something that has evolved as a compensation for a fixed elbow position?

Hu
Click to expand...

Hu, I'm the least qualified person on this site to reply to this question, but I do have an opinion. I feel that the loose, sloppy grip you mentioned above has evolved from the players finding out that monster cueball movement (in the form of spin of course) can be put on the cueball better the looser (with control) the grip is. I think Bustamante brought this "evolvement" with him to the US when he came over to play in American tournaments. It was surely used before him, but I feel he brought the loose grip (slip-stroke) to the forefront of modern poolplaying.

Maniac
 
NewStroke

NewStroke

Screamin Monkey
Silver Member
Thanks to RandyG, my grip as become so loose and soft, the butt of my cue actually gets longer if the weather is just right. ;)
 
sfleinen

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
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Steve Davis videos address the topic of the grip quite nicely!

Hu:

The Grip is an excellent topic of discussion, and you're going to get a TON of varied (but great!) feedback.

Steve Davis has an exceptional snooker instruction series, called "Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way."

In Part 2 of 10, at 5 minutes 41 seconds into the video, Steve addresses the topic of the grip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BK382Z8dIXc#t=341

(The link above will "jump" you to the 5:41 point automatically, via the "#t=341" stub on the end of the URL.)

Steve covers a lot of great stuff, in detail, through the series. Here are the ten parts:

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 1 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xmLe4pRLoNQ

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 2 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BK382Z8dIXc

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 3 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pfksev2sj0Y

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 4 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UwrVYz4yqUc

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 5 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jz8hwjvoh3k

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 6 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HQ-3Z7AKUOU

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 7 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QPTOKejK5bw

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 8 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SucXwbAz15Q

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 9 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=57gEtUMqmhg

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 10 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vFVClDVDVDw
​
Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
not sure if that is true

Maniac said:
Hu, I'm the least qualified person on this site to reply to this question, but I do have an opinion. I feel that the loose, sloppy grip you mentioned above has evolved from the players finding out that monster cueball movement (in the form of spin of course) can be put on the cueball better the looser (with control) the grip is. I think Bustamante brought this "evolvement" with him to the US when he came over to play in American tournaments. It was surely used before him, but I feel he brought the loose grip (slip-stroke) to the forefront of modern poolplaying.

Maniac
Click to expand...

Not agreeing or disagreeing here, just admitting I don't know if more spin can be put on a cue ball with a looser grip. I would think you could hit it very slightly further out because the cue tip deflects a little more keeping the cue ball from deflecting as much. However, I think better energy transfer is obtained with a firm contact so you can get the same results without hitting quite as far out. I have seen monster strokes with both grips so I simply don't know if one or the other offers more spin. One might be easier to use but that too seems to depend on many things.

I was shooting like dirt awhile back.(happened recently too but . . . :D :D :D )
Anyway, I went to a ridiculously tight closed bridge. So tight that a firm grip was required to force the cue stick though my bridge. The balls fell like rain until the skin on my bridge hand got too burned to continue using the technique.

Hu
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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Silver Member
I'll go take a look

Sean,

Thanks for the reminder and posting the links. I have Steve's instruction video's bookmarked too but I haven't looked at them in awhile. Truth is that my favorites need to be reorganized. While they are somewhat organized I have hundreds of bookmarks.

edit: This is somewhat relevant but not as much as hoped. Steve does advocate a moderate grip, tighter than many pool players but he also advocates tightening the grip when you contact the cue ball. I don't get much of an idea how tight he wants the grip to be at contact. However I think relaxing and tightening the back fingers in the grip as you stroke back and forth as the snooker players usually do is easiest for a moderately firm grip.

Hu


sfleinen said:
Hu:

The Grip is an excellent topic of discussion, and you're going to get a TON of varied (but great!) feedback.

Steve Davis has an exceptional snooker instruction series, called "Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way."

In Part 2 of 10, at 5 minutes 41 seconds into the video, Steve addresses the topic of the grip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BK382Z8dIXc#t=341

(The link above will "jump" you to the 5:41 point automatically, via the "#t=341" stub on the end of the URL.)

Steve covers a lot of great stuff, in detail, through the series. Here are the ten parts:

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 1 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xmLe4pRLoNQ

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 2 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BK382Z8dIXc

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 3 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pfksev2sj0Y

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 4 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UwrVYz4yqUc

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 5 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jz8hwjvoh3k

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 6 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HQ-3Z7AKUOU

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 7 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QPTOKejK5bw

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 8 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SucXwbAz15Q

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 9 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=57gEtUMqmhg

Steve Davis, Snooker the Champion's Way, Part 10 of 10:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vFVClDVDVDw
​
Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
sfleinen

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Details of my grip

ShootingArts said:
Sean,

Thanks for the reminder and posting the links. I have Steve's instruction video's bookmarked too but I haven't looked at them in awhile. Truth is that my favorites need to be reorganized. While they are somewhat organized I have hundreds of bookmarks.

Hu
Click to expand...

You are very welcome, my friend! Personally, I use a relaxed grip, that, after I settle into my stance, I adjust a bit for the right grip pressure before starting my warm-up strokes. (When one views my grip from the side or from the rear, my fingers can be seen "finagling about" until they settle down into a recognizable grip, before my warm-up strokes begin.)

Through the years, I used various grips / contact points in my grip hand. Sometimes thumb + two fingers (index and middle, or sometimes middle + ring finger and let the index finger go neutral), sometimes thumb + three fingers (index, middle, ring), or even what's called a "rear-fingered grip" that's occasionally used in snooker (thumb + middle, ring, pinkie, and let the index finger go neutral).

These days, I'm using a thumb + three-fingered grip (index, middle, ring fingers), and I completely fold my pinkie up into a little "ball" that I rest on the side of the cue -- the fingernail of my pinkie is actually resting flat on the side of the cue, to help keep the cue a precise distance from the heel of my hand. (Being a small guy with a runner's build, I have small-ish hands, and I traditionally had problems with the heel of my hand bumping into the cue at a certain point in my stroke / follow-through, which bumped/diverted the butt of the cue to my left, sending the tip of my cue to the right. Using my curled-up pinkie as a "space governer" to keep the cue a certain distance from the heel of my hand completely removed this problem for me!) This has become a favorite grip of mine right now, and I'm playing quite well with it. I use a rubber grip (tube) on my cue, just like the carom/3C players do, and I implement a slight wrist snap as well. I like this combination of light grip pressure + rubber grip on the cue. My grip pressure is steady, by the way -- I don't tighten at contact with the cue ball. Rather, I time my stroke so my slight wrist snap helps go straight through the cue ball.

-Sean

P.S.: apologies I don't post to AZB as often these days, because I'm "woodshedding" as it were, getting ready for some big tourneys (not the least of which is the Pro Players Championship at the Super Billiards Expo, and then the Empire State Predator Tour championship after that). I hope to do well!
 
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JimS

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
I was taught to NOT grip the cue but to cradle it across all the fingers with the thumb just touching the index finder and pointing down.

I probably tighten the grip when I strike the cb.
 
BRKNRUN

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
Correct me if I am wrong.......but don't 1-pocket.. 14:1 and Banks pool players use varying pressures depending on the shot.....usually when shooting bank shots that need to be spun in.

sometimes a loose grip puts too much spin on the ball....when a bit firmer grip (taking some of the transfer off) would have been ideal in order to make the shot.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
the core question

The core question that prompted this thread is "are we giving up any accuracy by using a very loose grip whether it be to facilitate the pendulum stroke without a lot of finger and wrist movement or to get more spin?"

It seems to me that looking at things from a purely mechanical standpoint we might be.

Thoughts Anyone?



Ken,

I don't know the answer to your question, I have always just banged around my way.

Hu
 
randyg

randyg

www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Hu

A lot of players have to tighten their grip because of a poor stroke.

The cue ball doesn't care or know how tight our grip is. I think the problem could also be that it is very difficult to duplicate a stroke with a tight grip.

In School we preach (teach) to let the cue stick do the work, not your body.

I like to refer to the grip as a CRADLE.

A tight grip can possible result in:
1. loss of speed
2. loss of accuracy

With that being said, I like what JoeyA said. "If it works, do it"....SPF=randyg
 
Fatboy

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ShootingArts said:
Not agreeing or disagreeing here, just admitting I don't know if more spin can be put on a cue ball with a looser grip. I would think you could hit it very slightly further out because the cue tip deflects a little more keeping the cue ball from deflecting as much. However, I think better energy transfer is obtained with a firm contact so you can get the same results without hitting quite as far out. I have seen monster strokes with both grips so I simply don't know if one or the other offers more spin. One might be easier to use but that too seems to depend on many things.

I was shooting like dirt awhile back.(happened recently too but . . . :D :D :D )
Anyway, I went to a ridiculously tight closed bridge. So tight that a firm grip was required to force the cue stick though my bridge. The balls fell like rain until the skin on my bridge hand got too burned to continue using the technique.

Hu
Click to expand...


Hi Hu,

I think that a looser grip probably leads to more spin on the Cue Ball, Fransico and Rafael Martinez both have very loose grips and get a ton of spin. Mike Massey defies physics so he cant be considered.

I lose accuracy when I have a very loose grip, I have tried to almost not have a grip and I get alot of spin, but its not the spin I was intending to put on the CB-in other words I miss the CB when I hold the cue too light.

I believe that a player should play with the loosest grip he can and still remain accurate.

best
eric

I hope this helps you, if it leads to another question I will be glad to answere it, I'm not claiming to be an expert here at all, but I have plaed long enough and expermented with differnt mechnical components in my game that I can give reasonable responses to most questions. I'm a elbow dropper(when I need to be), take care
 
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teedotaj

teedotaj

teedot oohhhhhh
Silver Member
I used to copy bustamante grip. I gripped too lightly and my potting was inconsistent. I got the ball moving with less effort though.

I watched Nic Barrow(snooker coach) videos on youtube and copied the grip he teaches. My potting increased. I shoot straighter. Here's an example of his vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TUnjZ8__Ow&feature=related

I use the Nic Barrow style primarily or try to emulate it anyway. I switch to the Bustamante style if I need to get the ball moving. I think it's the loose wrist action the gets the ball moving. I don't know why but it works for me.
 
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S

Secaucus Fats

Banned
Sometimes the shot requires a firm grip. The rest of the time a loose (but controlled) grip is just fine.

I agree with Fatboy in this quote: "I believe that a player should play with the loosest grip he can and still remain accurate."

However, there are shots where a heavier grip is a key component of the shot. There aren't that many, but there are a few.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
grip and stroke are closely tied together

randyg said:
Hu

A lot of players have to tighten their grip because of a poor stroke.

The cue ball doesn't care or know how tight our grip is. I think the problem could also be that it is very difficult to duplicate a stroke with a tight grip.

In School we preach (teach) to let the cue stick do the work, not your body.

I like to refer to the grip as a CRADLE.

A tight grip can possible result in:
1. loss of speed
2. loss of accuracy

With that being said, I like what JoeyA said. "If it works, do it"....SPF=randyg
Click to expand...


Randy,

I think that a too tight grip is often where the poor stroke comes from. A tight grip engages the muscles in the fore arm. Due to life's activities the muscles are never evenly developed. Unless we work to learn to shoot with a tight grip the unbalanced arm muscles will steer the stroke. Loss of speed shouldn't be seen with a firm grip. If someone uses a death grip, near maximum force, then yes it will bind up their entire arm and inhibit motion as well as make it extremely difficult to stroke in a straight back and forth motion.

Years ago I found that different sticks "liked" different grips. One cue needed a firm grip another played better with a soft grip. Perhaps this was how I adjusted for different swerve and deflection. I typically didn't use a real firm grip but substantially firmer than I am trying to use now. As part of my effort to go back to what once worked well for me I am revisiting almost everything. Doubt I'll bring back yesterday but I catch just a whiff of it now and then!

Hu
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
group reply

Eric, Teedotaj, and Secaucus Fats,

I am replying to all of you at the same time because it seems that you are all saying the same thing, too soft of a grip can inhibit accuracy while it does seem to give more spin on the cue ball. I have gotten massive spin with both a very tight grip and a very loose grip so I do understand that part of the comments.

I have watched the snooker video in the past and will watch the full thing to refresh my memory again. I worked with V's and such awhile back but I'm kind of having to accept that my hands and arms don't really conform to the standard profiles so I have to discover what works for me as far as angles of the grip and how it should look.

While all three have excellent points I think Secaucus Fats has covered it well in a few words. Use just enough grip to get the job done and some shots require considerably more or less grip than others to get the job done.

Recently I think I have exceeded the limits of gripping too soft. I have been guilty of gripping too hard and more particularly tightening the grip on the final stroke sometimes in the past, a fairly sure way to miss anything but the easiest shots! I think I'll move back to a firmer grip accepting that there is the risk I will steer some shots if I am not careful.

Gripping the cue high in my hand and tightening and relaxing the ring and little fingers just feels very right to me, did it for far too long. More and more I'm thinking this old dog is better off trying to get some of the old tricks working instead of trying to learn new tricks and new ways of doing things. I think in trying to change I'm getting betwixt and between where I'm not really doing one thing or the other right.

Thanks to all three of you for confirming my suspicions that too soft of a grip could be causing me accuracy problems.

Hu
 
dr9ball

dr9ball

"Lock Doctor"
Silver Member
Secaucus Fats said:
Snipped...
However, there are shots where a heavier grip is a key component of the shot. There aren't that many, but there are a few.
Click to expand...

Can you list those few shots where the heavier/tighter grip is "a Key component"? I am curious as to what those few shots are.

Thanks,
 
Nature Boy

Nature Boy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I am in stroke, I actually let the cue go and almost throw it through the ball. I didn't even know I did it until someone pointed it out to me.

Am I wierd?
 
Cuebuddy

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
For me I am a firm believer of letting the cue do the work on most shots. I have a bad habit of spinning the cue ball, at least I have been told its a bad habit. I can not get the spin on the rock I need by gripping the cue tightly. I think players tight grips can be vastly different though. After finishing concrete for most of my adult life my forearm and hand muscles are used to gripping trowels and other handles that are near cue size. There for when I grip a cue a little on the tight side it will totally ruin my stroke not to mention the cue:rolleyes:.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Been doing something similar

JimS said:
I was taught to NOT grip the cue but to cradle it across all the fingers with the thumb just touching the index finder and pointing down.

I probably tighten the grip when I strike the cb.
Click to expand...

Jim,

I have been doing something similar just cradling the cue. My arm and wrist hooks quite a bit in a "relaxed" position and trying to get into alignments often recommended forces me to deliberately move my hand backwards(outwards) out of it's natural alignment. I think this is leading to inconsistencies. If I grip the cue naturally and softly my thumb is considerably in front of my forefinger on the opposite side of the cue too. I've tried a few modifications to change this but they all seem very artificial just cradling the cue. Anytime something is artificial I suspect it fails me when I'm not paying close attention to how I am doing it.

Hu
 
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