TD's Responsibilities When Asked to Judge a Potential Double Hit Shot

ChrisinNC · Sep 11, 2018

Here is the scenario in our 9-ball handicapped tournament last night. An "A" ranked player was playing a "C" ranked player in the semi-final match. Hill/hill game and the C player is getting ready to play a shot on the 7-ball, with the cue ball about 2-3 inches away from it, nearly straight in the side pocket.

The A player, from his chair, waves me down to judge what he figured could be a potential double-hit by his opponent, but doesn't say anything to his opponent requesting me to judge the shot, as he didn't want to interrupt him as he was getting ready to shoot it. I am behind the C player who is already set to play the shot. I'm guessing there's a pretty good chance this guy doesn't know the rule on double hits or even what a double hit is. I position myself to get a clear look from just behind him, and he plays the shot nearly straight on in the side, pockets the 7-ball and the cue ball chases right behind the 7-ball at the same speed, somehow avoids scratching in the side and comes off a few more rails for good shape on the 8-ball, although it wasn't necessary for him to attempt to play it this way, as the 8-ball was very close to the corner pocket and he would have had a fairly easy shot if he'd just elevated his cue, stabbed at it with bottom and cinched the 7 in the side and stopped the cue ball. This was as easy and obvious a double-hit call as I've ever had to make.

When I immediately informed player C he had committed a double-hit foul, he looked at me astonished and couldn't believe it. I knew he didn't know the rule, and at that moment I didn't feel it was my responsibility to go into detail and explain it to him and further delay player A's ball-in-hand shot on the 8-ball. Player A proceeded to run out, at which time I attempted to explain in more detail the double-hit rule to player C and why I knew that he'd fouled. Regardless, he felt like he'd been robbed and left in a huff and may likely never set foot in here again.

A few questions I have regarding this situation, as the Tournament Director, how I chose to judge this shot / handle this situation. Am I required to inform the shooter before he shoots that I've been asked by his opponent to closely observe and judge the shot for a potential foul? Secondly, in the case of a player that I'm strongly guessing doesn't know the double-hit rule, is it appropriate or out of line for me to explain before he attempts to shoot it, what a double hit is, what will constitute me calling a double hit foul on him and how he could possibly play the shot legally without being a double-hit?

To answer my first question, as I was able to get in a position behind him to correctly judge the shot, in this case I didn't feel a need to have to interrupt him and inform him I was judging the shot. If it was the case of whether he would be hitting the correct ball first, then I'd have no choice but to likely have to inform him, to get myself in a better position to judge the shot from, but in this case I didn't feel like I needed to.

As to my second question, I don't feel it is my responsibility in the middle of the tournament to explain to a player, regardless of their handicap ranking or ability level, before he shoots a shot, what is and isn't a legal shot. In my opinion that would be out of line and offering unfair advice.

Unfortunately I don't have this gentleman's contact information, so I don't know if I'll be able to reach out to him to try to apologize to him, not for my actions, but for having to call this on him on such a crucial shot, and offer him the opportunity to come back in so I can further explain and demonstrate to him in more detail the double hit rule, so he'll know for the future and hopefully will return to play in more tournaments.

Did I handle the situation correctly, or for the future, how could I have handled it better? Thanks

Maniac · Sep 11, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Did I handle the situation correctly? Thanks

IMO you did handle it correctly. Just like in the thread here about a guy telling his cousin to mark the pocket...if the players playing in tournaments/league don't know the rules, they had better learn them or learn to keep their mouths shut when they are called on one.

To tell the shooting player what he may have been about to do would be a total injustice to the player who asked you to watch the shot, thus robbing him of the tournament win. You were a third party merely called upon to judge a hit, not to give out pool instruction.

Don't lose any sleep over it...you done good.

Maniac

pocket · Sep 11, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
snip snip snip...
Did I handle the situation correctly, or for the future, how could I have handled it better? Thanks

When there is not a referee assigned to the table, I would think it necessary for both players to be aware that the shot was being judged, and by whom.

Other than that, a foul's a foul.

Maniac · Sep 11, 2018

pocket said:
When there is not a referee assigned to the table, I would think it necessary for both players to be aware that the shot was being judged, and by whom.

Other than that, a foul's a foul.

Yes, but without letting him know that he had somebody watching him, by the shooter not even knowing what a double-hit was, would still have committed the same foul and his opponent would have been left to try explaining it to him what he'd done wrong. That could have left the fouling shooter in a state of mistrust/disbelief and eventually the TD would have had to been called in anyway to straighten the whole mess out.

Best to just it play out the way it did.

Maniac

Jeff G. Martin · Sep 11, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
The A player, from his chair, waves me down to judge what he figured could be a potential double-hit by his opponent, but doesn't say anything to his opponent requesting me to judge the shot, as he didn't want to interrupt him as he was getting ready to shoot it.

He needs to stop the shooter to have someone watch the shot.

ChrisinNC said:
I position myself to get a clear look from just behind him.

I’m assuming that this is not where you would normally stand to make this call. Again, the sitting player needs to stop play and have you come and watch the shot so you have time to position yourself appropriately.

ChrisinNC said:
I knew he didn't know the rule, and at that moment I didn't feel it was my responsibility to go into detail and explain it to him and further delay player A's ball-in-hand shot on the 8-ball.

I don’t see any issues with explaining (in short) to a player why he fouled while delaying Player A. It should only take a few seconds, and afterwards you simply walk away to remove yourself from the situation. Tell him if he wants further explanation or even a demonstration on what happened, he should talk to you after the match. This whole exchange would maybe take 20 seconds.

ChrisinNC said:
A few questions I have regarding this situation, as the Tournament Director, how I chose to judge this shot / handle this situation. Am I required to inform the shooter before he shoots that I've been asked by his opponent to closely observe and judge the shot for a potential foul?

100%, YES! Player C needs to know the shot is being watched. This is why I’ve mentioned twice that Player A needs to stop play so Player C knows the shot is being watched. How many times as a Tournament Director do you get called to ref a shot and then the shooter decides to play a different shot? Player C should have the opportunity to sit and ask himself “why is he calling a ref for this? Maybe I should shoot it differently/play a different shot”.

ChrisinNC said:
Secondly, in the case of a player that I'm strongly guessing doesn't know the double-hit rule, is it appropriate or out of line for me to explain before he attempts to shoot it, what a double hit is, what will constitute me calling a double hit foul on him and how he could possibly play the shot legally without being a double-hit?

Yes this would be inappropriate. He can ask what foul he might commit, but not how to hit it so he doesn’t foul. Ultimately your job here as a Tournament Director is to say “good hit” or “foul”.

ChrisinNC said:
To answer my first question, as I was able to get in a position behind him to correctly judge the shot, in this case I didn't feel a need to have to interrupt him and inform him I was judging the shot.

In my opinion, you may have been in a position to tell whether or not he fouled, but you weren’t in an appropriate position to make the call – if that makes sense. For example: when someone asks you to watch a shot, you could probably make the correct call sitting in your chair running the tournament, but that doesn’t mean that’s where you should make the call from. You go over to the table, ask why you’re there, look at the shot if you need to, and position yourself in the best possible location to make the call so it’s fair for all parties.

Black-Balled · Sep 11, 2018

I didn't read all the words. In fact, I am not sure how you used so many.

I am sure we are of the same bottom line: the person who calls the hit has ultimate say in the matter and both players- as a result of allowing someone to call the hit- need to stfu and move forward, accepting the caller's ruling.

I like to require that as terms of my call.

lfigueroa · Sep 11, 2018

My experience has been that when you have a ref watching, you do a little extra to make sure you're on the right side of the law -- maybe jack up a bit more, shoot a tad more off line, maybe use a different stroke. So IMO, the right/fair move would have been to interrupt the player (if necessary) so that he knows the shot is being reffed.

As to explanations, if he needs them, tell him to seek you out afterwards when you'll splain all things that he needs splained

Lou Figueroa.

RiverCity · Sep 11, 2018

Player should have been stopped and told the shot was being watched and why. If at that point, they ask what a double hit is, then it can be explained

I prefer to use situations like that as a teaching opportunity. Helps players get better and keep coming back as opposed to feeling cheated by rules they dont know or understand.

Or you can handle it like you did and cause hard feelings over a recreational activity that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. :thumbup:

ChrisinNC · Sep 11, 2018

pocket said:
When there is not a referee assigned to the table, I would think it necessary for both players to be aware that the shot was being judged, and by whom.

Other than that, a foul's a foul.

Yes, in hindsight, based on the responses so far, seems like I should have interrupted and stopped the shooter before he shot, to inform him I'd been called to the table to judge the shot by his opponent. This may or may not have resulted in his playing the shot differently and possibly not fouling. At the very least, he wouldn't have been so surprised that I'd been so closely watching from just behind him and that I'd called the double hit foul on him.

fastone371 · Sep 11, 2018

Chuck Fields said:
Player should have been stopped and told the shot was being watched and why. If at that point, they ask what a double hit is, then it can be explained

I prefer to use situations like that as a teaching opportunity. Helps players get better and keep coming back as opposed to feeling cheated by rules they dont know or understand.

Or you can handle it like you did and cause hard feelings over a recreational activity that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. :thumbup:

I gotta disagree a little here. At our BCA state tournament I asked a ref who was watching my shot (object ball and cue ball were very close together, about a 1/2" a part) what the criteria was for a good hit. His only response was that it be a good hit , period. I asked him if there was a certain distance the QB could travel before the shot was deemed a foul, once again he replied "it needs to be a good hit". We used to have to play by rule where the cue ball could not travel beyond the original spot of the object ball when hitting straight into the shot if the balls were separated by a cube of chalk or less. I know this because I lost in the finals of a tournament because of the rule even though I made a good hit. No matter how I asked the ref to clarify his answer he would only respond with "it needs to be a good hit".
As far as a legal hit in the OP's situation it is pretty easy to determine it is a foul when the QB is following the object ball at nearly the same speed but that is very difficult to explain to an offender during competition. In a similar situation I explained to my opponent during league once and went on to explain how to tell if it was a foul and options on how to shoot the shot legally, when our game was over both my opponent and her husband thanked me for teaching them this.

Luxury · Sep 11, 2018

If you ever want to demonstrate why it’s a foul there’s three things that I can think of:

Put A ton of chalk on his tip, have him hit the white portion of the 14 ball in the double hit situation as if it’s the Cue ball. Show him how clean the white portion as and then after the shot show him the two distinct blue chalk marks.

Have him do the double hit and ask him to watch how fast the Q ball chases the object ball and then challenge him to get to keep all the chase it that fast when you move the cue ball a foot away from the object ball.

Almost every phone nowadays has a slow-motion camera

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

easy-e · Sep 11, 2018

pocket said:
When there is not a referee assigned to the table, I would think it necessary for both players to be aware that the shot was being judged, and by whom.

Other than that, a foul's a foul.

I agree. I’d let him know that I’ve been asked to watch the hit. Never would I explain a rule to the shooter before the shot.

easy-e · Sep 11, 2018

ChrisinNC said:
Yes, in hindsight, based on the responses so far, seems like I should have interrupted and stopped the shooter before he shot, to inform him I'd been called to the table to judge the shot by his opponent. This may or may not have resulted in his playing the shot differently and possibly not fouling. At the very least, he wouldn't have been so surprised that I'd been so closely watching from just behind him and that I'd called the double hit foul on him.

I’ll add that maybe the opponent could have interrupted him and said something along the lines of “do you mind if I get someone to watch the shot?” Perhaps you can make that a rule going forward. If you would like a referee on a shot you must inform the shooter before he shoots.

mikemosconi · Sep 12, 2018

IMO play should be stopped ALWAYS to inform shooter of a ref's presence when a ref is not present for an entire match. In amateur competition, the shooter should have the right to have a potential foul explained PRIOR to the shot, as the shooter has a right to understand how the ref will interpret the shot according to prevailing rules. In the situation described I would have been just as pissed off as the shooter with perhaps a much more volatile response. I still do not understand how a follow shot is not allowed from a 2 or 3 inch distance - I could see if the balls were frozen, but not in this case. I can follow an object ball with the cue ball at a 2 or 3 inch separation distance without a double hit for sure, Go back to Ray Martin's 99 critical shots book and that shot is in there.

ChrisinNC · Sep 12, 2018

mikemosconi said:
IMO play should be stopped ALWAYS to inform shooter of a ref's presence when a ref is not present for an entire match. In amateur competition, the shooter should have the right to have a potential foul explained PRIOR to the shot, as the shooter has a right to understand how the ref will interpret the shot according to prevailing rules. In the situation described I would have been just as pissed off as the shooter with perhaps a much more volatile response. I still do not understand how a follow shot is not allowed from a 2 or 3 inch distance - I could see if the balls were frozen, but not in this case. I can follow an object ball with the cue ball at a 2 or 3 inch separation distance without a double hit for sure, Go back to Ray Martin's 99 critical shots book and that shot is in there.

I never said a follow shot when the CB is 2-3 inches from the OB is an automatic foul on a nearly straight in shot. As I described on this virtually straight in shot, the CB chased directly behind the OB at the same speed with no hesitation, then went off a couple more rails - clearly not possible with a legal hit.

The shot you are referring to which is indeed possible and legal, the CB would at least hesitate and then roll forward at a slower pace - big difference. And it would be extremely hard to do this when the CB is within a chalk's width (3/4") of the OB, which is why this chalk's width rule on double hits on nearly straight in shots is generally accepted.

hang-the-9 · Sep 12, 2018

Since this was a handicapped event, with players that are not likely know the rules, the double-hit rule should have been explained to the player, before he shot. I guess it was nice that the player nor you wanted to interrupt the player, but should have.

The rule for a ref and explaining rules is that you can explain what the rule is, but not offer coaching on how to avoid the foul. Meaning you can tell them that a double-hit is a foul and what a double hit is, but you are not responsible for explaining on how to shoot the shot so as not to foul. Technically the player has to ask you if a shot is legal or not, meaning they can ask "if this happens is it a foul?", that is a clarification of the rules, the ref nor the other player is required to inform them of the rule so they ask about it.

In your case, it is a bit iffy since you are not playing in the US Open LOL In a local handicapped event that really does not matter since half the reason there are weaker players there is so they get better. In any local tournament with weaker players, the opportunity to teach should be used. In the tournaments I play in, if I know or suspect the player does not know the rules and is about to break one in my opinion, I stop them and explain the rule to them, and usually on how the hit can be done so it's not a foul. My team has done that in league also when the opposing newer shooter was about to do a double hit or a push and it was very clear they did not know about the rule.

I remember a junior doubles tournament where my son was coaching not only his partner but the other team as well LOL

easy-e · Sep 12, 2018

hang-the-9 said:
Since this was a handicapped event, with players that are not likely know the rules, the double-hit rule should have been explained to the player, before he shot. I guess it was nice that the player nor you wanted to interrupt the player, but should have.

The rule for a ref and explaining rules is that you can explain what the rule is, but not offer coaching on how to avoid the foul. Meaning you can tell them that a double-hit is a foul and what a double hit is, but you are not responsible for explaining on how to shoot the shot so as not to foul. Technically the player has to ask you if a shot is legal or not, meaning they can ask "if this happens is it a foul?", that is a clarification of the rules, the ref nor the other player is required to inform them of the rule so they ask about it.

In your case, it is a bit iffy since you are not playing in the US Open LOL In a local handicapped event that really does not matter since half the reason there are weaker players there is so they get better. In any local tournament with weaker players, the opportunity to teach should be used. In the tournaments I play in, if I know or suspect the player does not know the rules and is about to break one in my opinion, I stop them and explain the rule to them, and usually on how the hit can be done so it's not a foul. My team has done that in league also when the opposing newer shooter was about to do a double hit or a push and it was very clear they did not know about the rule.

I remember a junior doubles tournament where my son was coaching not only his partner but the other team as well LOL

I like the whole “being friendly” aspect, but what about the guy who wanted the shot watched? Dude is there hoping to win money. His opponent should not be allowed a coach during the tournament.

sbpoolleague · Sep 12, 2018

Chris,

Your solution lies in the answer to this question...what would you (and should you) have done if you were NOT called over to the table, but you just happened to be standing near the table watching the "C" player shoot and you witnessed the double hit?

Unless a TD has been officially called over to judge a shot, which includes notifying the shooter, that TD should NEVER be the FIRST person to call a foul. The TD must wait for the shooter's opponent to call a foul, THEN, if there is a disagreement, the TD can add their two cents.

If you start calling fouls on matches where you have not officially been put in the "referee chair", you can open yourself up to criticism for things like bias, favoritism, etc.

Bob Jewett · Sep 12, 2018

There was one player in a handicapped league I played in who simply could not understand how the such a shot was a double hit and although he would not turn away while I explained it to him multiple times, he never seemed to listen or understand.

I think about all you can do for players like that is to make a special rule for them: if they have a close shot they have to be the one to call someone over to watch or their opponent's word will rule on the shot.

There was a video up for a while of one former world champion playing another former world champion. The player left himself about 1/4 inch from a ball, fumed about it, and then quickly, before his opponent could call someone over, shot straight through the ball. "Disputed shots go to the shooter."

Even former world champions can be cheating scumbags.

Koop · Sep 12, 2018

easy-e said:
I’ll add that maybe the opponent could have interrupted him and said something along the lines of “do you mind if I get someone to watch the shot?” Perhaps you can make that a rule going forward. If you would like a referee on a shot you must inform the shooter before he shoots.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Koop - agrees with Easy

TD's Responsibilities When Asked to Judge a Potential Double Hit Shot

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