Deep Knowledge

justnum · Sep 6, 2020

No contest about their expertise.

Just imagine if they had a jump cue, a break cue and the new style bridges.

Does this shift in the game mean today's players are less talented at pocketing or more knowledgeable of exotic shots?

Caroms are not used much in today's competitive pool.

I think those players had to express themselves on the table differently than today's players.

Today's players have deeper knowledge, but when the standard is high, it doesn't look that way. But at a tournament the greats stand out so obviously in a match.

xradarx said:
Greenleaf and Mosconi both honed their skills early playing the game of carom pool on 5'x10' tables.
They knew where the cue ball and both balls were going prior to shooting shots.
They could carom shots and hit any selected other object balls with great intent.
They could break out any balls with great precision to advance their current runs.
They could control the movement of necessary balls within fractions of an in/mm.
They were expert at sending the cue ball through the rack at all times
They were expert at caroming the cue ball off the rack or other balls to control ball movements with precision

Bob Jewett · Sep 6, 2020

xradarx said:
source
http://www.thehypertexts.com/History of Billiards Pool Chronology.htm

That site also includes this among billiard/pool/snooker records:

(#4a) John Schmidt, straight pool, 626 balls on a 4 1/2 x 9 table, on May 27, 2019, witnessed but not during a competition (he tried to break the record for a year, shooting solo)

So, there you go. John did it.:grin:

And I only recently noticed that John broke the record at 527 on 5/27. Pretty neat, huh? Seems like fate.:thumbup:

Patrick Johnson · Sep 6, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I only recently noticed that John broke the record at 527 on 5/27. Pretty neat, huh? Seems like fate.:thumbup:

Maybe he only kept going because he forgot what month it was.

pj
chgo

Dan White · Sep 6, 2020

xradarx said:
One more time, once again there has never been actual video ever submitted to the public for proof. Spreading misinformation isn't cool, though. You have my permission to send JS your hugs, without prodding me. You seem to be very anxious to continue to reward me with your red reps, I say to you, keep them to yourself. Here I go. xradarx

For the record, my remark about you spreading misinformation was based only on your comment that the best pro's can only hit center ball 25% of the time even when they are trying. I call BS on that. The rest of what you wrote I have no problem with. Well, I believe the JS run is probably legit but I wouldn't call it a record in the public's eyes until it is made publicly available.

Dan White · Sep 6, 2020

xradarx said:
I operated a beer joint with one 46"x92" pool table when I met a pool player in 1969 who was 75 years of age.

Clarence Moore, played like a champ. Put a Country Club Malt Liquor near each corner of the pool table and he would put on an exhibition of 14.1 Straight Pool Continuous for you. He would run 75 - 100 or more on each inning. All he needed was for someone to rack the balls for him and he was off to the races.

He told stories of his 14.1 pool instructor, who turned out to be George Spears, a great 14.1 Balkline Billiards player that Clarence traveled with during the 1920's and 1930's. He actually played exhibitions with George and witnessed George providing carom and 14.1 Straight Pool Contnuous pool instructions to Greenleaf and to Mosconi. They crossed paths many times while Greenleaf was winning titles and Mosconi was developing his game. George Spears died about the same time as Greenleaf in 1950's.

Ghosts; I can still see him playing the Game. It's all in the head.
Happy trails, enjoy your tales, too.

Great story, nicely written!

AtLarge · Sep 6, 2020

xradarx said:
... Ralph Greenleaf: World Pocket Billiards Championship titles
• 1919 vs. Willie Mosconi ...

Willie was 6. Was their exhibition a world championship?

justnum · Sep 6, 2020

AtLarge said:
Willie was 6. Was their exhibition a world championship?

its for the new users, they have click bait issues.

the pictures calms them down.

this picture shows birthdate for W. Mosconi (1913)

Robert.Beak · Sep 7, 2020

lfigueroa said:
Do you believe there is such a thing as "deep knowledge" when it comes to pool?

I mean, stuff not found in books or generally discussed? Certainly not the science. More like the knowledge that great players come to learn after years of study, practice and experimentation, hand down from father to son, hoard, maybe occasionally share amongst themselves, and eventually take to their graves.

What say you?

Lou Figueroa

as my girlfriend says - Teach me to play billiards, from the fact that I can only lay down beautifully on the table
:grin::grin::grin:

lfigueroa · Sep 7, 2020

Dan White said:
I've heard Mike Sigel say the same thing but is it really true? It looks like the championship was played every year during WW2 and I'm 99% sure that Mosconi actually played to win all of his 19 championships. Sadly, Ursitti's database of tournament history is gone, and even the Wayback machine doesn't have it, but you can find bits and pieces of tournament results online. Amazing there doesn't seem to be any website that has the history of tournament results.

From: https://www.poolroom.com/legendary-players/

He entered his first major tournament in 1937 and won the world pocket billiards championship in league play in 1941 and in tournament play the following year. After losing the championship in a match with Andrew Ponzi in 1943, he regained the title by beating Ponzi in 1944 and held it until 1946, when Irving Crane won a world championship tournament.

Mosconi reclaimed the championship by beating Crane in a 1947 match. From 1950 through 1953 and in 1956 and 1957, Mosconi won annual tournaments to become world champion. He retired from competition after suffering a stroke in 1957.

I'm not so sure that is true either.

I would like a reference.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa · Sep 7, 2020

Dan White said:
Seems they did make a distinction between "winning" a title vs "defending" one. In either event, that is a far cry from simply being named the champ without even playing. I haven't seen where in straight pool that actually happened. I still can't believe Ursitti's database is gone. I recall looking through Mosconi's championships years ago and he actually played to win. Maybe a couple of Greenleaf's were in name only???

The Billiard Association of America, which governed the sport and set up the championships, had all kinds of different formats over the years.

Sometimes 12 man round robins, other times challenge matches.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa · Sep 7, 2020

xradarx said:
One more time, once again there has never been actual video ever submitted to the public for proof. Spreading misinformation isn't cool, though. You have my permission to send JS your hugs, without prodding me. You seem to be very anxious to continue to reward me with your red reps, I say to you, keep them to yourself. Here I go.

I don't understand why anyone would red rep you over his stuff.

As I recall, in the lengthy thread we a had a few months back on this subject, there is reason to believe the BCA "certification" (two guys with questionable 14.1 bona fides) is at the very least questionable. And as has also been pointed out numerous times, though video of the entire run exists it has never been put to thorough scrutiny, with portions of the run shown publicly run at high speed.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa · Sep 7, 2020

AtLarge said:
Willie was 6. Was their exhibition a world championship?

Of course not.

Neither was their 112 day two-man exhibition tour in 1933. Greenleaf was by then the established world champion, while Mosconi was the up and coming player. They played 127 matches and Greenleaf won 57, with Mosconi winning 50. But, most of Mosconi's wins came towards the end of the tour, with Willie observing Greenleaf's technique and improving on the fly.

Back to the subject of deep knowledge, it is interesting to read Mosconi's comment about watching and learning from Greenleaf while on the tour with him: "I watched him like a hawk. I learned all the little tricks and profited from the tremendous hoard of knowledge he had accumulated in his career."

Lou Figueroa

Bob Jewett · Sep 7, 2020

lfigueroa said:
... Back to the subject of deep knowledge, it is interesting to read Mosconi's comment about watching and learning from Greenleaf while on the tour with him: "I watched him like a hawk. I learned all the little tricks and profited from the tremendous hoard of knowledge he had accumulated in his career."

But it's interesting to note that Mosconi improved on what he saw. He said he took Greenleaf's techniques and reduced the cue ball distance to make every shot easier.

ShootingArts · Sep 7, 2020

Joe

xradarx said:
I operated a beer joint with one 46"x92" pool table when I met a pool player in 1969 who was 75 years of age.

Clarence Moore, played like a champ. Put a Country Club Malt Liquor near each corner of the pool table and he would put on an exhibition of 14.1 Straight Pool Continuous for you. He would run 75 - 100 or more on each inning. All he needed was for someone to rack the balls for him and he was off to the races.

He told stories of his 14.1 pool instructor, who turned out to be George Spears, a great 14.1 Balkline Billiards player that Clarence traveled with during the 1920's and 1930's. He actually played exhibitions with George and witnessed George providing carom and 14.1 Straight Pool Contnuous pool instructions to Greenleaf and to Mosconi. They crossed paths many times while Greenleaf was winning titles and Mosconi was developing his game. George Spears died about the same time as Greenleaf in 1950's.

Ghosts; I can still see him playing the Game. It's all in the head.
Happy trails, enjoy your tales, too.

A great post! Clarence reminds me of Joe, a gentleman I played for months as a very young man. Joe was very possibly well into his eighties and could still run tables on a nine footer, admittedly with the bucket pockets of the day. It wasn't until many years later that I came to wonder who "Joe" was. Maybe always an unknown, maybe somebody that had lived long past his due date and retired to the piney woods of South Louisiana!

We are losing our connections to the great era of pool, have lost most of them. I see ghosts myself. Sometimes I wonder if those that weren't that old are still kicking around somewhere. Did they die or just realize that pool was a dead end street?

Hu

Dan White · Sep 7, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
But it's interesting to note that Mosconi improved on what he saw. He said he took Greenleaf's techniques and reduced the cue ball distance to make every shot easier.

If I recall correctly, in his autobiography, Mosconi said that Greenleaf was able to place the cue ball within two inches of his target. Mosconi added that when he was able to place his cue ball within one inch, he "knew he had him."

I guess that would qualify as deep knowledge.

justnum · Sep 7, 2020

Dan White said:
If I recall correctly, in his autobiography, Mosconi said that Greenleaf was able to place the cue ball within two inches of his target. Mosconi added that when he was able to place his cue ball within one inch, he "knew he had him."

I guess that would qualify as deep knowledge.

Well did Mosconi ever stack two billiard balls.

I know two players that have done it on film and I've seen it once live. Its not a magic trick.

Get_A_Grip · Sep 7, 2020

Dan White said:
If I recall correctly, in his autobiography, Mosconi said that Greenleaf was able to place the cue ball within two inches of his target. Mosconi added that when he was able to place his cue ball within one inch, he "knew he had him."

I guess that would qualify as deep knowledge.

I think the knowledge part of the very precise "1 inch position" is the fact that Mosconi had a "nip stroke". Where he nipped at the cue ball with a very short stroke to move the cue ball around precisely. I read once that when someone told him that he had a nip stroke that he resented that. But he definitely nipped at the cue ball a lot.

Dan White · Sep 7, 2020

justnum said:
Well did Mosconi ever stack two billiard balls.

I know two players that have done it on film and I've seen it once live. Its not a magic trick.

??? Huh??? Can you explain exactly what this means?

jay helfert · Sep 7, 2020

justnum said:
Well did Mosconi ever stack two billiard balls.

I know two players that have done it on film and I've seen it once live. Its not a magic trick.

I can stack three in my hands. As far as perfect center ball hits go, the poster who said it's not easy to do was correct. You can tell the sound of a perfect center ball hit and nobody did it better than Buddy Hall. He said he never had to go more than a tip off center for any shot.

justnum · Sep 7, 2020

jay helfert said:
I can stack three in my hands. As far as perfect center ball hits go, the poster who said it's not easy to do was correct. You can tell the sound of a perfect center ball hit and nobody did it better than Buddy Hall. He said he never had to go more than a tip off center for any shot.

I can juggle three with two hands, at least 10 reps.
I can do three with one hand, maybe 3 reps.

Pool is sport played in motion. Try to keep up.

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