Deep Knowledge

[ShootingArts]

Knowledge and execution

I can stack three in my hands. As far as perfect center ball hits go, the poster who said it's not easy to do was correct. You can tell the sound of a perfect center ball hit and nobody did it better than Buddy Hall. He said he never had to go more than a tip off center for any shot.

Buddy's knowledge and execution are both great. I think at this point nobody knows all there is to know about pool shots. Some are smarter than the average bear though and Buddy is one of those people. Going to be a hole in the pool world when he goes for a lot of reasons.

Hu

 

[lfigueroa]

If I recall correctly, in his autobiography, Mosconi said that Greenleaf was able to place the cue ball within two inches of his target. Mosconi added that when he was able to place his cue ball within one inch, he "knew he had him."

I guess that would qualify as deep knowledge.

Yes, but what I took his meaning to be in that book was that Greenleaf would play position for two feet from the ball. Mosconi said he cut that in half.

Lou Figueroa

 

[capt hook]

people find new ways to do things, get an edge, cheat. If you're not cheating, you're not trying. Jumps came from somewhere. Became regulated and has a page in the rule book. It's not cheating anymore if you do it "by the book"

 

[measureman]

I've been helping out a fairly new player with the basics of position play.
Zones,high and low percent shots,etc.
I told him he is not ready for the deep knowledge yet.
He asked me what that was and I told him he wouldn't understand.
Some day I'm going to have to come up with something. LOL.

 

[Poolmanis]

Deep Knowledge:
Carom shots are accurate and easy shots if you have knowledge and put couple day practice.
I did shoot little example vid just 15 min ago.
Check it out if interested to see what kind accuracy is obtained just few days of practice.
https://youtu.be/XUXQqVCcr6A

 

[jay helfert]

Yes, but what I took his meaning to be in that book was that Greenleaf would play position for two feet from the ball. Mosconi said he cut that in half.

Lou Figueroa

He meant inches! Mosconi was talking about where he wanted the cue ball to end up. Lassiter used to get upset with himself when he got more than an inch out of line! You don't know what you don't know.

 

[The_JV]

Deep Knowledge:
Carom shots are accurate and easy shots if you have knowledge and put couple day practice.
I did shoot little example vid just 15 min ago.
Check it out if interested to see what kind accuracy is obtained just few days of practice.
https://youtu.be/XUXQqVCcr6A

Hell I've been practicing sewers all my life...lol

I have a ton of respect for your game. However a carom into a pocket isn't really all that tough. You have a large target.

Place an OB 8 or more inches from those pockets and knock them in with a carom.

I like running through OBs with heavy follow for caroms. People don't tend to notice those options.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Deep Knowledge:
Carom shots are accurate and easy shots if you have knowledge and put couple day practice.
I did shoot little example vid just 15 min ago.
Check it out if interested to see what kind accuracy is obtained just few days of practice.
https://youtu.be/XUXQqVCcr6A

While the vast majority of pool players don't know what you are doing there, anyone who has played English Billiards (or some forms of pyramid) will immediately recognize half-ball in-offs. Should something that is absolutely standard in one form of billiards be considered deep knowledge in another?

Here is a tutorial on English Billiards. The discussion of how to "scratch" starts at about 2:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfCLcTPE6ls

 

[ShootingArts]

Speaking of just noticing something ...

View attachment 556888

its for the new users, they have click bait issues.

the pictures calms them down.

this picture shows birthdate for W. Mosconi (1913)

I just noticed that had Willie Mosconi been born a southern country boy he would have been known as Billy Joe Mosconi!:thumbup:

Always suspected he wasn't that crazy about "Willie", I would like to have seen his face were he ever introduced as Billy Joe! Willie seemed a little undignified for the man, he always seemed a little more dignified than that name. If not William, Will or Bill seem like they would fit the man better.

Hu

 

[Matt_24]

I can stack three in my hands. As far as perfect center ball hits go, the poster who said it's not easy to do was correct. You can tell the sound of a perfect center ball hit and nobody did it better than Buddy Hall. He said he never had to go more than a tip off center for any shot.

I like this! Thanks, jay.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Yes, but what I took his meaning to be in that book was that Greenleaf would play position for two feet from the ball. Mosconi said he cut that in half.

Lou Figueroa

That's the way I remembered it too, but here is the actual section in "Willie's Game" about this. It was Greenleaf's innovation to play short shape and Mosconi improved on that in other ways.




The book, "Willie's Game", is available for under $10 including shipping on Biblio.com. That's essentially free and if you wait a while they'll have a 15% off sale. I have one copy with some highlighting for $12 shipped.

 

[Poolmanis]

While the vast majority of pool players don't know what you are doing there, anyone who has played English Billiards (or some forms of pyramid) will immediately recognize half-ball in-offs. Should something that is absolutely standard in one form of billiards be considered deep knowledge in another?

Here is a tutorial on English Billiards. The discussion of how to "scratch" starts at about 2:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfCLcTPE6ls

Yes. You are right. A lot of secrets come from other games like 3-cushion,pyramid or baulkline.

Those shots are not always half ball hits btw. But secret for learning them is first shoot em half ball hit and full follow. Then learn to adjust carom angle with just speed of the stroke. That way you have only one variable on the shot and learning get really fast.

 

[lfigueroa]

He meant inches! Mosconi was talking about where he wanted the cue ball to end up. Lassiter used to get upset with himself when he got more than an inch out of line! You don't know what you don't know.

oh yes -- I think of that every time I read one of your posts about 14.1.

I think that while it's open to interpretation, the central point was that Mosconi learnt and refined what Greenleaf was doing, to include tighter position play.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Dan White]

That's the way I remembered it too, but here is the actual section in "Willie's Game" about this. It was Greenleaf's innovation to play short shape and Mosconi improved on that in other ways.

View attachment 557085
View attachment 557086

The book, "Willie's Game", is available for under $10 including shipping on Biblio.com. That's essentially free and if you wait a while they'll have a 15% off sale. I have one copy with some highlighting for $12 shipped.

Funny because we're all grabbing a different part of the elephant and also remembering slightly incorrectly. The part I was referring to is on pg 50 where Mosconi says he will end up an inch or two from his intended position AFTER running the balls off.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here's another example of knowledge most players don't have. This is copied from a discussion in the instructors forum....

I don't know if it is one of his books, but Bob Byrne related a "sharp practice" that Fred Whalen showed him. Fred was the promoter of the big Los Angeles (Burbank) tournaments in the 1960s-70s:

You are playing one pocket. That involves a lot of spotting balls for fouls and balls pocketed in wrong pockets and such. Suppose you have two balls spotted and frozen already. You make a ball in an extraneous pocket and it has to spot up. You freeze it nicely to the back ball of the pair, but you don't put it exactly in line on the foot string. Instead, you place it slightly towards your opponent's pocket. How much? Try and see.

Your opponent might even notice the misalignment and think that will help him eventually to move the back ball to his side of the table, and he might say nothing.

If you hit the front ball from nearly anywhere up table, the middle of the three object balls will get squoze (that's the technical term:wink towards your pocket.

The front ball doesn't have to be frozen to the middle ball. The important frozen spot is between the ball that is to be squoze forward and the ball that blocks it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... . Sadly, Ursitti's database of tournament history is gone, and even the Wayback machine doesn't have it, ...

I posted this two weeks ago in the thread about Ursitti's site:

Charlie died in 2018 and his website had been out of commission for a while. The files are still available for viewing on Deno Andrews' Scribd page:

https://www.scribd.com/user/10247027/Deno-J-Andrews

I think you have to sign up for a Scribd membership but it is free. They will ask you to upgrade or start a "free" upgrade trial, but that's not necessary.

The "Billiards Magazine" articles are not there, just the tournament records.​

I was just looking at the pool records and it seems that if you are not a paid member of Scribd, you are not allowed to use the search function. You also can't do a cut and paste from the pages. It would be nice if Deno released the pages to the public domain.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I've heard Mike Sigel say the same thing but is it really true? It looks like the championship was played every year during WW2 and I'm 99% sure that Mosconi actually played to win all of his 19 championships. Sadly, Ursitti's database of tournament history is gone, ...

With a little spare time on my hands, I made a list from Ursitti's files of all of Mosconi's World Championship wins. He nearly won in 1933 as mentioned in this note from Ursitti's files:

1933 World Tournament continued ..... .
Note: This was William Mosconi's first World Tournament appearance. In his very first game in world championship play he faced Erwin Rudolph and was defeated by a score of 125 to 124. Needing only one point, Mosconi jawed the "One Ball" in the corner pocket. Rudolph got up and ran 42 and out. The one ball not only cost Mosconi the game but the World Title.

Mosconi tied with four other players with a record of 6 wins and 3 losses. Rudolph's record stood at 7 wins and 2 losses. Mosconi could have become one of only two men to win the World Title on his first attempt.​

Here is the listing of his 19 World Championships including the format, locations and runners-up:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=517711

It is remarkable that this list was never compiled before. Or maybe I missed it.

Willie won his 19 championships in one long league season, six multi-player round-robin tournaments, and 12 challenge matches, with the longest challenge match finishing with a score of 8727-7508 points against Caras. Anything worth doing is worth doing for weeks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I wouldn't call it a record in the public's eyes until it is made publicly available.

It is publically available (or was before the lockdown) for a reasonable price of admission. I think John is entitled to that. Also, the entity that recognizes records in pool in the US has certified it. It will never be universally recognized, of course -- there will always be pickers of nits.

 

[jay helfert]

Here's another example of knowledge most players don't have. This is copied from a discussion in the instructors forum....

I don't know if it is one of his books, but Bob Byrne related a "sharp practice" that Fred Whalen showed him. Fred was the promoter of the big Los Angeles (Burbank) tournaments in the 1960s-70s:

You are playing one pocket. That involves a lot of spotting balls for fouls and balls pocketed in wrong pockets and such. Suppose you have two balls spotted and frozen already. You make a ball in an extraneous pocket and it has to spot up. You freeze it nicely to the back ball of the pair, but you don't put it exactly in line on the foot string. Instead, you place it slightly towards your opponent's pocket. How much? Try and see.

Your opponent might even notice the misalignment and think that will help him eventually to move the back ball to his side of the table, and he might say nothing.

If you hit the front ball from nearly anywhere up table, the middle of the three object balls will get squoze (that's the technical term:wink towards your pocket.

The front ball doesn't have to be frozen to the middle ball. The important frozen spot is between the ball that is to be squoze forward and the ball that blocks it.

Fred Whalen was a pretty sharp cookie with a gangster past. He operated the casino boats that would take passengers six miles off shore in California so they could gamble legally. This was in the 1930's to 1940's. He son Jack Whalen was considered the toughest guy in Los Angeles and stood up to mob boss Mickey Cohen. He never carried a gun and would often disarm men who did. Unfortunately two gun toting mobsters caught Jack in a phone booth and brought an end to his life.

Fred Whalen won the California Straight Pool Championship fourteen times during the 1940's and 50's. Verne Peterson finally dethroned him for good. Fred hired me to referee Straight Pool matches at his tourneys in the early 1970's for $5 a match. Refereeing Straight Pool is not that easy! You better know ALL the rules and be able to remember the count in your head from rack to rack.

Fred made a ton of money wholesaling trinkets to stores all over Los Angeles. He lived in an old mansion high on a hill overlooking Franklin Ave. In Hollywood. I visited him there twice, the first time with Richie Florence. Fred loved Pool and the poolplayers. He promoted his tournaments as a labor of love, never making a profit on any of them. And that's the name of that tune.

 

[measureman]

With a little spare time on my hands, I made a list from Ursitti's files of all of Mosconi's World Championship wins. He nearly won in 1933 as mentioned in this note from Ursitti's files:

1933 World Tournament continued ..... .
Note: This was William Mosconi's first World Tournament appearance. In his very first game in world championship play he faced Erwin Rudolph and was defeated by a score of 125 to 124. Needing only one point, Mosconi jawed the "One Ball" in the corner pocket. Rudolph got up and ran 42 and out. The one ball not only cost Mosconi the game but the World Title.

Mosconi tied with four other players with a record of 6 wins and 3 losses. Rudolph's record stood at 7 wins and 2 losses. Mosconi could have become one of only two men to win the World Title on his first attempt.​

Here is the listing of his 19 World Championships including the format, locations and runners-up:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=517711

It is remarkable that this list was never compiled before. Or maybe I missed it.

Willie won his 19 championships in one long league season, six multi-player round-robin tournaments, and 12 challenge matches, with the longest challenge match finishing with a score of 8727-7508 points against Caras. Anything worth doing is worth doing for weeks.

Jimmy Caras was one of the best 14.1 players in history and Willie beat him by 1219 balls,how strong is that?